Job Discussion Forums

[writpetition]

Some pertinent questions (and perhaps, answers):

Is English a language or an accent?

If it is a language (as any thinking person might believe), what is its purpose? Could it by any chance be communication?

If the purpose of a language is to provide a means of communication what are the essential features required to make for effective, clear and near complete communication? The answer to this is the ability to speak or write in a manner that enables anyone who knows the language and can read it to understand clearly and without too much difficulty and when one is a listener or reader, to be able to understand as lucidly as possible, what the speaker or writer has conveyed. If one can perform all these functions reasonably well, one can be said to be somewhat of a master at a certain language.

Use of English is not limited to the UK or a just a handful of countries. In fact, if that were the case there would be less need for people from different parts of the world to learn it. English is used by people from all over the world. Thus, anyone who knows the language, regardless of where he comes from, should be able to communicate freely with people from all over the world who speak or use the language.

Will a British, American or Australian accent help one's mastery over the langauge and make one better at the language, to communicate better?

Can a Chinese/Asian student with a perfect American accent, but with little or no knowledge of vocabulary, sentence structure and the essentials of a language and its subtle uses, communicate effectively with people from different parts of the world? In fact, will he even be able to really COMMUNICATE with an American. Moreover, there isn't even a standard American accent or a British accent or.... There are more accents than one would dare imagine. But, yes, right pronunciation is what is needed,and is an essential part of communication. And, pronunciation is not the same as an accent.

In the search for an accent, could it be that English learners are essentially being taken for a ride.

To be concluded!

[tofuman]

WP,

I have met this focus on correct accent with disdain on different occasions. It is a good example of people not seeing the forest for the trees.

The Chinese interest in English is driven by the crassest of motives, the love of money. They want to do business internationally and believe that English will enable them to achieve this end.

I do lots of English corners. I talk to many different people about many subjects. Few questions concern substantive matters. The focus is either on drivel (Can you use chopsticks?) or other useless information. It often reflects limited English on the part of the participant. More seriously, few Chinese that I have met have any interest in abstract concepts or spiritual issues, both of which I find interesting. It may be that those who are interested in these things do not attend English corners.

I often ask people what they think happens when a person dies. Once, I was given a fascinating explanation of Chinese funerary customs. There is virtually no concept of an afterlife, resurrection, reincarnation, judgment, heaven or hell, etc.

These things permeate Western society. While few actually believe in these concepts, most are at least aware of their existence.

Many Chinese would like to strip English of its Western cultural womb, which happens to be Judaeo/Christianity. During the Renaissance, humanists took up the study of Greek and were led to the New Testament which, in the Northern countries, sparked the Reformation. The culture of Europe was redirected.

Great Britain, which brought forth the English Bibles, was profoundly shaped by Reformation influences;consequently, English became in modern times, the Greek of the Renaissance in terms of allowing access to spiritual writings.

We can do our Chinese friends a great favor by directing their minds to the literary and ideological treasures of the English language. The study of English is a means to an end, not the end in itself. Useless fascination with grammatical points and accents is not only a waste of time, it is a waste of mind.

[writpetition]

Eloquently stated, Tofuman!

"There is virtually no concept of an afterlife, resurrection, reincarnation, judgment, heaven or hell, etc."

Actually, they do have these concepts, developed under the influence of Taoism and Buddhism, and I daresay, some actually believe. But, English Corner, a public domain, is not where most would voice such beliefs. Remember, they have learnt to say the 'right' things in public on account of the existing political realities and demands. And, they abhor losing face!
With some familiarity, privacy allowing, you will be able to draw some intelligent participants into deeper and more meaningful discussions.

"The Chinese interest in English is driven by the crassest of motives, the love of money. They want to do business internationally and believe that English will enable them to achieve this end." How true!

I quote from a very telling post by a Chinese student on another messageboard - she is scathing about the esl business in China and commends the Singapore educational system, in near perfect English -

"I am a Secondary 4 Chinese student studying in Singapore and I'd like to voice the truth about our education system.

Employers and schools in China are only interested in money. My parents paid through their nose to get me an education during my early schooling days in China and in return what did I get. Nothing, absolutely nothing. If they do really care about our education they would have taken the cue from Singapore.

They have Indians, Pakistanis, Malays and Chinese teaching English in all their government schools. Every major subjects taught over here is in English. They do not need any "white native speakers" to teach them English. And if we were to compare the level of English between their secondary school students and most of the English majors in Chinese universities - the difference, your guess is as good as mine.

Is that not proof enough that Non-Native Speakers are on par if not better than any ordinary white faces teaching in China. .

.
This is my fourth year in Singapore. When I first arrived I was shocked as my English was nowhere near any of my present classmates. My head-teacher a Chinese man was very patient with me and got me through all the difficulties.

I hope the authorities back home right the system and not judge on colours. May the teachers be the colours of my 12 beautiful coloured pencils, they are teachers. My English teacher in Singapore is not White but a respected teacher."

But, such voices are likely to go unheard!

[Roger]

Few mainland Chinese are as levelheaded as that girl studying in Singapore.
China is a very new comer to the foreign language instruction scene; until a couple of centuries ago foreigners in China were forbidden from studying Mandarin, and during the communist heyday, Chinese were forbidden from talking to the very rare foreign travellers in China (read the various accounts by westerners living in China in the 1970s!).
THe one language that the CHinese were encouraged to learn was Russian, for obvious reasons. Yet it was not made a compulsory subject. English was another language beside Japanese that the gifted few were allowed to study. I know a 56-year old woman who is fluent in all three foreign tongues.
When Russian was finally replaced with English, a paradigm shift occurred.
The nation had a new paramount leader who had lived in France before WW II. He was a so-called "capitalist roader" during Mao's cult revolution and suffered for this.
He at first encouraged the young to study ANY foreign language, and the young did just that, with the result that China lost some 300'000 bright minds to Europe and other countries.
These studnts mastered as diverse and challenging languages as Finnish, Spanish, Italian, German - and you could see them at European universities in the 1970s.
They were not immune to the western bug that invades a CHinese body exposed to it in an alien environment. A minority of them returned; you can read some of their tales in a booklet compiled by the Foreign Language Publications House (forgot the name of the story collection but I had one some 5 years ago and might find its name again).
In the early 1980s the Party recognised that China could no longer ignore the "capitalist" West, and they started working towards making English a regular and compulsory subject, which by now it has become.
As you can see, these decisions underlined China's willingness to open up to the rest of the world. They went even so far as to submit to the supposedly pernicious influences from Westerners and their culturally polluted minds: the idea of importing foreign teachers was born with active wet nurse assistance from certain American universities and the establishment.
Thus, from the outset native English speakers have been involved in delivering the lessons, though with arguably disastrous results. Fluency has not been achieved on a significant level. On the Chinese side one often feels they are shooting themsevles in the foot, while on the EFL teachers side one has sometimes the impression those native speakers come over for a paid sabbatical or an extended fun-through-teaching holiday camp.
British teachers were not intially welcome, perhaps for ideological reasons (Hong Kong was still under British sovereignty). Thus, Americans dominated, and with that, the American accents and other features.
As for the shooting in their foot: with the current commercialisation of English instruction this is going to be even more evident. FTs should not be in a subordinated role conducting English corners and related activities that seldom fail to degenerate into chit-chat sessions. BUt the overwhelming majority of Chinese seem to think FTs cannot do a Chinese English teacher's job because the teaching of English has, in their narrow minds, to be done in the students' mother tongue.
Any suitably qualified FT could do a better job provided they can overcome this cultural bias that insists the teacher must speak in Chinese for most of the time.

[tofuman]

"FTs should not be in a subordinated role conducting English corners and related activities that seldom fail to degenerate into chit-chat sessions."

While true that English corners may degenerate into a "chit-chat" session, that is a reflection on the FT. I control the conversation at English corners. If it degenerates, that is a lack of skill on my part. After appearing nearly weekly at 2 corners for more than a year, there is a core of constituents that know many things about me. I direct newbies to them for the usual innane questions and answers. "Smart alecks" are given a couple of warnings before I refuse to converse with them. If they continue, I simply walk away. No problem getting another group together.

The biggest problems are parents who prompt their little genius to ask me ridiculous questions. I usually play along a little bit, but after a few exchanges, turn to others. I have, rarely, rebuked obnoxious parents. Sure, it is a loss of face for them, but the other choice is that I stop attending English corner, which would be a greater loss for many others.

English corners are great opportunities for free talk and provide, to English learners, an opportunity for real conversation. The conversation must be managed correctly. I direct the conversation into areas that I enjoy discussing. The harmful effects of tobacco is one of my favorite areas. Dental flossing is another fun one.

If you have nothing of import to impart to English students at English corners, or are not able to enjoy the rough and tumble of a true English lab, that is your loss as well as that of the community in which you serve.

[Roger]

[Talkdoc]

[tofuman]

"I don't know from what position you can generalise to this extent, tofuman."

The position that I occupy in my two previous posts. If you choose to not mess up you hair or get your pink hands dirty at an English corner, that is your business. I enjoy English corners. I started one at the school where I work. I support the efforts of the local community to promote oral communication in English by attending, usually, two a week.

I have met some great people at English corners. A dirt poor peasant farmer who excelled in school to the point of being on scholarship at a local university, a former government prosecutor, various engineers, physicians, businessmen, military personnel and others. I happen to like people. And I have learned some interesting things from the local students.

I don't expect to do much teaching at English corners, but I am happy to provide an opportunity for the local talent to try their skills. I have also been impressed by the lovely children who speak English quite fluently.

I craft the English corners to my liking. When I stop having fun, I'll stop attending.

How you spend your time here is not my affair. When I start paying your salary, I'll start telling you what to do.

[Atlas]

At my expensive language mill for business professionals, I was saddled with the advanced level English corner. I prepared for hours, did research, printed materials and led what I thought were energetic discussions on advanced topics such as economics, law and management, psychological research, and even modern poetry, and I swung at the ball hard and hit for distance. If I may say, I presented a professional collegiate atmosphere, and the student surveys chucked me at the bottom, under "perpetually drunk guy", "Kindergarten Mama", "affable Aussie", and several "young, dumb, tall and handsomes". (Mind you the point differential was negligible, and the survey was more an opportunity to elicit student whining to be used against the teacher's scheduled salary increases).

So I led a focus group with my smart, adult darling students and the findings were not surprising.

They didn't want to read. At all. They didn't want to talk to each other. They didn't want to write (and can't be bothered to pick up a pen on request, just sit staring bemusedly). They don't want a lecture and they don't want interactivity. They don't want to sit there doing nothing.

I secretly dropped my level to "Intermediate shmoozing and gossip" and now they're all fat and happy. They are not there to learn or debate. They are not there to practice with each other. They want to have individual conversations with the teacher all at once, and they have very little faith in the actual information the teacher presents to them. They want the teacher to blather on about an interesting topic while they make the occasional comment; or if someone is taking too much floor, for the teacher to silence them (I don't--I say it's a lesson in capitalism. OF course, then a student was shocked that I would admit to being such a thing. Excuse me? Why are you learning English again?). They want to be picked on to respond, because that saves face of appearing selfish and speaking up for one's opinion. (One good thing was, they didn't mind being corrected--that wasn't embarrassing, or at least, that's what they said as a group. But I just bet they hate it).

(I once asked them, if you saw someone you were attracted to at the library, or a restaurant, what would you say to them? The prevailing response was a sheepish "I wouldn't talk to them". What are they waiting for, the government??).

I quite agree with what's been said on this thread, especially the parts about how FT's are expected to get results without the students' participation or the opportunity to actually teach substantial subjects. I agree with the girl's letter that skin color isn't a requisite for teaching. I agree with the statement that the perception of intellectual topics is very much denigrated by the proletariat and viewed as a waste of time when there's money to be made (though I understand it in terms of Maslow, if the people are poor, money is a more pressing issue than economic theories and Ginsberg poetry).

When the economy is more developed one would hope the attention would turn to more intellectual pursuits, political reforms, and more social activities and fewer fake study sessions of rote materials. I have had the rare, all too rare, bright light bulb that makes it all worthwhile, that gives one hope for the progressive and international-minded Chinese person, and I've no doubt this country can produce more if it chose to.

Until then it seems the things it wants most are money, greed, guanxi, for one's family, screw the world. I also want to say that many of my students are as slow as Christmas, and that's not being imperturbed, that's being dense and adopting an imperious manner to hide it. They have a lot of cultural intertia to overcome to build momentum in terms of intellect and efficiency, not to mention lateral thinking.

Oh, and I quite agree with the idea that China is trying to divorce English from western culture, hence the stupid "English" names, and racism and xenophobic attitudes. It's a game or tool to many of them. Like the internet--a convenient method for looking productive while chatting and sending pictures to each other. It's a source for ready-made homework. Not much more than that, really.

I just want to say that even the worst western FT's have more to contribute than they want from us.

[Roger]

Atlas has said more than I ever dare say, in a concise and yet playful manner. I still prefer entertaining some illusions about the role of English in this society but English corners and salons manifestly tend to shatter them. Many are organised by the Party, i.e. by the local media that often run an English page/hour in their dailies/programmes. In Shenzhen, the Shenzhen Daily runs them, and in Guangzhou the Guangzhou Daily runs them; they are good business as Chinese participants pay 8 kuai per evening, and foreign emcees attend for free - Chinese apartheid that fuels Chinese resentments, though as an after-thought when they discover the foreigners didn't succeed at pleasing the crowds. And how can they? Yes, you can - if you debase yourself or the westerners enough.
Take note too that those Chinese participants may have set for themselves a goal defined by the organiser: to win a prize in a speech contest. The jury will be Chinese, with a sprinkling of token foreigners among them. At such contests speakers will drone on on topics dear to the powers-that-be and, sometimes, a tad embarrassing for us non-Chinese. The audience doesn't really care because they are inured to these speeches from their Chinese media and even teachers.
Let me add that gthere was a period in all my years here when I was doing an English "corner" every week - with participants that I swore in on English novels to be discussed during those vents. This was a somewhat more efficient way of using everyone's time, including mine; it was also a lot more satisfying to do. Sadly, literature-themed English discussion groups are highly unlikely to be sponsored by your average employer. Public schools force-feed their students on the official CCTV news at 7:30, and no principal would be happy to know you are trying to discuss news with Chinese English learners.

If you, tofuman, enjoy those English corners I am glad for you; maybe you can discuss next time with your charges why their own English teachers never speak English to them? Surely you agree the answer "...but we don't understand his English..." or "...he must translate things into Chinese so we understand them..." doesn't hold too much water for you, does it?

[Talkdoc]

[tofuman]

I insist that my students select an English name. I've yet to meet one who selected "Kinky." One lovely teen age girl, during a lesson on EKGs, said that she had an EKG now and then because "I want to know if my body is good." She had an ordinary English name.

One girl asked me to give her a name, which I did. Nothing out of the ordinary or corny, but suitable.

Perhaps it is my relative newness here, but I still enjoy English corners--on my terms. It is unfortunate that we all don't have something to offer these folks from the land of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. Language is a means to an end; consequently, if language knowledge is all that I have to impart after all these years, my earthly sojourn has been somewhat in vain.

The TaiPing * was spawned by the influence of a few tracts and a book or two that were originally written in English. Certain individuals, such as Augustine and Count Zinzendorff, were greatly influenced by just a few words of truth at an appropriate time in their life.

Luther changed the course of modern Western civilization because he came to an understanding of a simple Pauline passage, "He who is righteous by his faith shall live." Others attribute his awakening to an understanding of just three words "Righteousness of God."

I don't underestimate the power of a word spoken at the right time, possibly at an English corner. The Chinese are capable of so much more that they are realizing here and now in China. It's not an accident that they have opened their doors to us.

[Atlas]

[Talkdoc]

[Madmaxola]

gawd dam you peoples garbage and ways of thinking. You are so f'in cynical! Strewing your pollution around! How many Chinese do you know on a personal level? There are many who want to learn English to expand their mind and their horizons!