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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: Database of Fake Degrees |
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| Chinarecruiter wrote: |
| If you don't have a degree it is still possible to get employment in China. |
There are no exceptions to the bachelor's degree requirement for a Z-Visa: not even in locales where the demand is high and the supply is low. This means that people who are teaching there (or anywhere else in China) without degrees are doing so with either an L- or F-Visa or on the strength of a forged degree (in some cases supplied by the school) or the school has bribed the PSB to act as if evidence of a degree had been provided.
Despite what some people will tell you, it is not legal to enter China to teach on (and with) an F-Visa, not even if the contract period is for less than six months (because, obviously, the only reason for doing this is to circumvent the Z-Visa requirements or the Foreign Expert Certificate Fees). Although many underqualified people have taught in China in the past with an F-Visa without incident, one of the many errors in doing so becomes painfully apparent once or if there is a serious problem with your employer (a condition not exactly unheard of with private English language schools). Don't expect the recruiter, the PSB or the provincial Foreign Affairs Deputy Director to run to the side of a foreigner who has gambled on working in China illegally if and when something goes very wrong. You will then have no recourse but to accept whatever is being hurled at you, to return home (often at a significant loss in wages) or to find another unscrupulous school willing to hire you on an F-Visa (and don't expect the work conditions to be any better).
If we as foreign teachers collectively refuse to self-servingly exploit the conditions in China that encourage and perpetuate the false hiring of underqualified teachers, conditions will not only improve for legitimate foreign teachers all across China but for our students as well. And someday, China may actually come to value her foreign English language teachers as real professionals who can contribute far more to the education of China than to just the increase of student enrollment. Maybe then, we might collectively be allowed to actually teach English and other subjects within our fields of expertise.
You are right Jeff, as a professional educator, I find nothing funny at all in the current state of affairs regarding foreign English language teaching in China or in the role some of us play here as entertainers, glorified baby-sitters, marketing associates and billboard models.
Doc |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Doc...is the "Alian Workers Permit" that some schools use instead of the "Foreign Experts Permit" require the proof of degree. I once was issued this kind of book along with a Z visa (no proof of BA asked for or given), but not sure of the skinny on this as it was some time ago.
It is a fact that the z visa is required to get the "Foreign Experts Permit" which as I understood is the required proof that you have the right to work in China...as a Foreign Expert...but what are the requirements to work on an "Alian Workers Permit" as an instructor..and before I get an Rx from the ole' Doc..I agree that everyone should be legal and have the proper paperwork...no one should ever buy fake degrees or any kind of licence (drivers or motor tag), as in China many things are permissible ...until you are caught. |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:40 am Post subject: |
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I have been somewhat tortured regarding the question of fake degrees; afterall, "education" in China is more or less fake. It seems only logical to employ individuals with fake degrees in fake classes offered by fake schools. I'm not referring to only the private language mills.
The government school that I work at is doing an exceptional job of offering students a fake education by putting students unable to comprehend basic English in technical English courses and promoting students who fail the basic classes into the more advanced classes.
Putting students of oral English into classes of 50 or more is just another fraud perpetuated by a fake system.
The entire concept of "foreign experts," in most cases, is fake as well. How many "foreign experts" are ever consulted about anything as experts?
Of course, it may be a situation unique to my circumstances. |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Darkchild,
I believe you could find a volunteer job teaching English without a Bachelor's degree. In this case, you probably would be issued the F-visa, not a Z-visa. The length of stay in China would not be long. I know this is probably not helpful advice, but as I see it, this is the only legal way you could enter China with an F-visa and teach English. This is usually done by people in your situation who have not yet graduated.
AB |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I also beleave there may be other provisions for getting a z visa without a BA....
1. If you hold a tech tittle of the same level.
2. Those who have worked for more than five years and are experienced in their specialized fields,and those who are able to conduct technical supervision and are qualified in their own professions.
3. Those who possess special techniques and particular skills especially needed by the PRC.
4. Those who have experience of working abroad and engaging in management for more than five years, although this may be limited to large organizations.
Remember "The State Bureau of Foreign Experts Affairs of China" is the official organ under the central government and is in charge of the foreign experts working in China and not other type of workers under other types of work permits.
According to the regulations, foreign experts who come to China for long-term service should apply for Visa Z on their entry. Those who are invited to visit, teach or participate in the exchange of science, technology and culture and stay in China for a short term should apply for Visa F on entry.
The regulations state nothing about payment for services.
There are no absolutes in China.... |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: .... |
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i have to agree with some of what tofuman has said. there is often no expertise in the expert here in china. most esl teachers are only here because they're foreigners who happen to speak english, maybe have a degree and are breathing. there is little consultation done here with the so-called experts.
further, when i need my degree notarized in china (or any other country for that matter) i need to take it to my own consulate, give it to them along with filling out a form or two, leave behind $50-75, and in a week to ten days, they'll get back to me indicating that the degree is indeed real, and they're now prepared to notarize it for me. this is what my own consulate has to do to verify my degree's authenticity. i doubt that the chinese have an easier way of doing the same thing, and i also doubt that they're going to bother with all the work that verifying the degree entails. fake degree holders probably shouldnt worry. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: When the bough breaks... |
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| tofuman wrote: |
| I have been somewhat tortured regarding the question of fake degrees; afterall, "education" in China is more or less fake. It seems only logical to employ individuals with fake degrees in fake classes offered by fake schools. |
Tofuman, your cynicism is a bit overwhelming at times and I think at least partly explained by the difficulties you are having with your FAO (and, believe me, I've been there, done that and have the T-shirt. Well, actually, I don't have the T-shirt because the school wanted us to pay for half of it). I don�t know what is happening at other universities but I can tell you that the administration at Hainan University does take their educational responsibilities very seriously. The university president has mandated an expectation of a five to fifteen percent fail rate and she means it. Last semester, I failed 12 percent of my students and was told �good;� there was no behind-the-scenes changing of grades, I can assure you. (Two students automatically failed for attempting to cheat. That is, one student had a friend of his, with decent English, produce his ID for the oral exam - hoping I wouldn't notice that the stronger student had sat twice for the same exam. The school supported me.) All students here are required to report to a mandatory study hall every night from 7:40 to 9:30 pm and attendance is taken and those who consistently fail to report are expelled. As an educator, I wish the curricula were not taught primarily by rote and to the passing of exams; but in a society as competitive as this one (by its sheer numbers), I do understand it. There are well-regarded, professional graduate school programs in America that are notorious for doing the same thing (i.e., that teach directly to passing the profession�s state licensing exam, for example, Fordham Law School).
You are entirely correct (by inference) about one thing though: schools that recruit candidates with fake degrees or that actually forge fake degrees for their teachers could not be making a clearer and more egregious statement of contempt toward those employees. That behavior screams "We don't value you or what you do here at all - you are a joke; so what difference does it make whether you are real or not?!"
I really don't know if "our" refusal to participate in this fraud will ever change our role and status in China; but I am one-hundred percent certain that our failure to do so will all but guarantee the perpetuation of that fraud and the subsequent disregard, disrespect and abuses that exist because of it. And I am not so naive as to expect the seas to part for that one teacher in 20 (maybe 30?) who just happens to be a professional educator.
Why Westerners would come to this country to work illegally without teaching credentials (for a job they would not qualify for back home) and then be surprised when they are disregarded and treated like chattel or piece-workers is beyond me; personally speaking, I would expect nothing less.
Will professionalizing English teaching in China change the landscape for the rest of us? I don't know; I think there is a better than average chance. I do believe that something will have to give because the cognitive dissonance involved in disregarding foreign professional educators who are as well or better qualified than their Chinese counterparts will become too severe and blatantly absurd (which would then invoke issues of face). The Chinese absolutely do value education and experience and eventually, they would begin to reconsider what they have in us and how to best capitalize on it, although I would agree xenophobia might always find some expression, to varying degrees (at least during our time). But I am not convinced that any Western country can claim absolute freedom from similar prejudices against immigrants in practice (no matter how well-defended against by law).
Doc
Last edited by Talkdoc on Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
I also beleave there may be other provisions for getting a z visa without a BA....
1. If you hold a tech tittle of the same level.
2. Those who have worked for more than five years and are experienced in their specialized fields,and those who are able to conduct technical supervision and are qualified in their own professions.
3. Those who possess special techniques and particular skills especially needed by the PRC.
4. Those who have experience of working abroad and engaging in management for more than five years, although this may be limited to large organizations. |
That is entirely correct and bears absolutely no relevance to this discussion of what is required in order to work here legally as a foreign English language teacher (although I realize you added these technical exceptions in the interest of academic curiosity only). The fact remains that if you are being hired in China as a foreign expert, in the capacity of a foreign language teacher, you do need a bachelor's degree. It is hypothetically possible for someone, who has a special and needed technical skill, such as a police finger-print expert (who is not in possession of a bachelor's degree), to be issued a Z-Visa: but these types of exceptions do not pertain to us.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Those who are invited to visit, teach or participate in the exchange of science, technology and culture and stay in China for a short term should apply for Visa F on entry. |
That is only partially correct. The word used by the SAFEA is "lecture," not teach. What you failed to mention is that those coming here on F-Visas must document their places of business and sources of income back home including the production of credit cards and evidence of bank accounts (upon request). The SAFEA is not silent on the issue of income regarding F-Visas (which is precisely why those here on F-Visas never have to provide proof of having paid income tax; for it is understood they weren't earning any income and, if they did receive an honorarium for a lecture, tax convention agreements with other countries stipulate that the income is taxable by the foreigner's own government).
CJ - If you are coming to China to work, to earn income, you MUST come on a Z-Visa; there are no exceptions to that (although many try to argue justification for working here on an F-Visa citing there is no difference between lecturing in China, for the purposes of exchanging cultural, technical or scientific information, as part of one's work responsibility back home and teaching English full time for income in this country: but obviously there is a gross difference).
| cj750 wrote: |
| There are no absolutes in China.... |
Perhaps there are no absolutes: but there are laws. Foreign language teachers in China are required to have a minimum of a bachelor's degree and two years of related work experience in order to teach here legally with a Z-Visa.
Doc |
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Taishan
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Welcom number 12 mddel school
This is in huge letters of the school my some of my friends work at, they giggle everytime they see it. None of the Chinese teachers noticed it until one of the foreigners mentioned it. With English like this ANY native speaker of English who has completed high school is an expert! Which of them can forget the classic 'eduction for a bettce life!'?
Unfortunately for most foreign teachers in the Chinese education system they are rarely more than a way schools to get more status, then charge more fees, of course.
My problem with some people on these forums is that they don't really believe that the standards are too low, because students are getting a raw deal with substandard unqualified teachers. It's more that anyone not qualified up to their standard should not be here teaching, in the hope that they might gain higher pay and status being one of the few 'professionals' left. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: Chicken or the Egg? |
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| Taishan wrote: |
| My problem with some people on these forums is that they don't really believe that the standards are too low, because students are getting a raw deal with substandard unqualified teachers. It's more that anyone not qualified up to their standard should not be here teaching, in the hope that they might gain higher pay and status being one of the few 'professionals' left. |
Speaking entirely for myself, as one of the "some people," I did not move to China in pursuit of higher pay and elevated social status; those are what I left behind (as would be the case for any of the "professionals" you allude to).
What I really do believe is that we, as a collective group of foreign English language teachers in China, are being unilaterally engaged in a manner consistent with the capabilities of the least qualified amongst us; and I think that is a damn shame for everyone involved - students, teachers, administration and China. I also believe that most of us will be asked to do little more with our students, at least on paper, than rehearse English pronunciation until such time that almost all of us are duly qualified to provide considerably more. I am also aware that this issue is something akin to a "Which came first: the chicken or the egg?" type of debate.
In a manner of speaking, the Chinese have predetermined our function (their need), for us as teachers here, on the basis of who they believe they can attract to meet those needs. And maybe they are correct - for there is little point in expecting (and needing) us to do more if only a small percentage can. This problem is something of a Catch-22 for all involved and maybe their failure to ubiquitously enforce the educational and work-Visa requirements is the result of a fear (or a realistic appreciation) that doing so with produce nothing more than a shortage of truly qualified teachers. From my perspective at least, a salary differential of, hypothetically speaking, 4000 RMB would not have made any difference in my decision to retire early, at the time that I did.
And therein lies the rub: how much of a salary would the Chinese realistically need to offer a master's level professional educator or doctoral-level academician from the West in order for him or her to seriously consider moving to China to teach: if primarily motivated by money? I honestly believe that those of "us" who are here, are not so because of the money or status but for a multitude of other reasons completely apart from those two factors. The problem is there simply isn't enough of "us" to go around, at any salary they could realistically afford: hence our limited collective role as oral English pronunciation teachers (in order to accommodate the typical qualifications of the vast majority who are willing, for whatever reason, to work here for an average salary of 5000 RMB per month). So maybe Taishan you are correct, maybe it doesn't really make any difference whatsoever: high school diplomas, fake degrees, teaching on L- and F-Visas - as, obviously, all any of us really need to do is speak English without a major speech impediment. However, it is also possible that this is the precisely the type of thinking that will all but guarantee the preservation of that status quo for Chinese students of foreign languages and their more qualified Western teachers: and what a pity that will be.
Doc |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:44 am Post subject: |
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There are master level professionals as well a doctoral-level academicians from West teachin in China and they are paid well. They are exchange teachers from western universities and they usually make western salieries paid by their home universities. This level of instructions already exist and there is a framework in place for the schools to make use of these programs...schools such as Normal University in Changchun have several foreign teachers on staff..dont know about tenure...
Unless engaged in one of these exchange programs..you may not be regarded as a top shelf professional no matter what education level you may have. Your value is equated along the same lines as the least qualified. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:37 am Post subject: |
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CJ, teachers and academicians employed here through exchange programs, in cooperation with Western schools and universities, constitute only a very small percentage of professional English language teachers in China. Furthermore, your inference (in terms of status and professional regard) that they are utilized any differently from their non-exchange program counterparts is simply incorrect; on the average, they are not.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Unless engaged in one of these exchange programs..you may not be regarded as a top shelf professional no matter what education level you may have. Your value is equated along the same lines as the least qualified. |
You are incorrectly equating the issue of status (and professional regard) with foreign teacher utilization within the current curricula and, in China, these are two entirely different entities. I currently hold the rank of full professor, I earn a slightly higher salary than my Chinese PhD counterparts do, I believe I am very well-regarded by the university and I am teaching the same classes as some of my Chinese colleagues are (and I am not here through an exchange program). The problem is that my teaching load consists entirely of "oral English" and that was (and still is) my entire point. Part of that reality is dictated by the fact that I don't speak Chinese; but mostly it is the result of the points I made earlier regarding how and why we are utilized in the manner that we are (vis a vis curriculum needs being established for those who are predominantly underqualified: and the manner of this utilization has absolutely nothing to do with whether one is teaching here through an exchange program or not).
Doc |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Doc,
How many students would be able to understand you if you taught in the field of your expertise? |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| tofuman wrote: |
Doc,
How many students would be able to understand you if you taught in the field of your expertise? |
I don't know, maybe 10 to 20 in the whole university? But my comments weren't necessarily directed to the teaching of psychology (or other technical or advanced areas of expertise).
Here is specifically what I am referring to. I have been given a book entitled "Tourism English" from which to teach. The book is poorly translated over from Chinese and contains many errors in spelling, grammar and syntax. What I have decided to do with this course (with the blessings of the assistant dean) is to use the various topics, contained within, as a springboard for discussing cross-cultural differences along many dimensions, e.g., dating, marriage and family, role assignment by gender, music, food, cultural attitudes regarding age, risk-taking, fate and destiny, human nature, societal change, suffering and misfortune, face, self-esteem and self-worth, equality, social formality, degree of realism, individual autonomy vs. group cohesion, and view of the natural world, to name but a few. I often bring in my own hand-outs for various discussions and use an online dictionary to translate some of the words into Mandarin.
My goal is to discuss topics that might be interesting to college students (Chinese and otherwise) which, in turn, increases the probability of them actually trying to speak in class. I was pretty successful last semester with this approach (which is to say that everyone, including me, was and is happy and the students do, after warming up to me, talk a hell of a lot in class). By way of another example: while we are waiting for part II of this tourism English book (for two of my classes that are being continued from last semester), the students (mostly the girls) have asked me to talk about infidelity and divorce (this topic came from them, not me; although the word they used was "cheat," not "infidelity." The girls have expressed a great deal of fear about their futures in marriage, because of infidelity, and have asked me to devote an entire class to this topic).
But here's my main point - in no way would I refer to this type of course as an EFL "oral English" class; that's entirely a misnomer which I (as well as the university) happen to be stuck with because of how the role of foreign English language teachers is conceptualized in China. The only difference in the way I am teaching this class here versus how I might teach it back home, is that I speak a lot more slowly, use simpler words, repeat myself often and occasionally consult my English-Chinese dictionary in class to introduce new English words to them.
Why not call the class what it really is: cross-cultural perspectives 101? The answer is that on paper, I am not technically allowed to teach that type of class in China as a foreign "English" language teacher (because it doesn't officially exist) - although I am being highly encouraged to do so because of my education, background and experience.
What I have been arguing all along is that I truly believe that if more qualified teachers and academicians actually existed in China, the "leaders" would eventually alter the curricula to reflect and accommodate the resources that they have to work with (instead of making impromptu adjustments on a case-by-case basis). But just as long as most of the teachers in China are high school grads working here on F-Visas, with fake degrees from Cambridge or instant, "life-experience" PhDs from Belford "University," our teaching assignment (as well as the curricula in universities and schools across China) will be defined, on paper, as "oral English" because, in the final analysis, that is all they can really count on us for (and even then there are problems).
Doc |
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ResiWorld
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 283
Location: 10,000 miles from hangzhou
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Doc laoshi,
whew, I'm exhausted after that one. My brain hasn't had a workout in days since you've been on strike. Missed your stimulating insights. I hope to see more.
- student of psychology |
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