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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| I did some checking around last night and I found that some of my information is out-dated. Some of the teachers I was referring to, didn't get their visas within the last last year. Some of them have renewed them however. I also called around to some teachers who do the hiring for their schools and asked about getting the Z visa without a degree. I was told depended on the city, school's guanxi etc... It can be done. So I will retract saying how it is no problem. Some cities have become very strict, but there are still some who are not. By the way TD, I notice you lumped me in with the 8 teachers I was referring to, not the case, I do have a BA. I also agree with IJ. I don't judge a teacher by them. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Indiana Jones wrote: |
| I have a 2-year Diploma of Arts: Professional Writing & Editing. I spent 4 years part-time studying the structure of the english language. |
And I would argue, on your behalf, that you are far better qualified than I am to teach the technical and mechanical aspects of the English language. Fortunately for me and my students, I have never been asked to teach English; I teach other subjects under the rubric of "oral English," for which I am duly qualified. In your particular case, I would not argue against your ability to perform the job of "English teacher" well but solely against the belief that you (and others without a minimum of a bachelor's degree) can teach here legally (for whatever that fact is worth to anyone concerned).
As most of us are not teaching English, per se, but are instead engaged as oral English practice facilitators, are degrees and certificates really necessary at all (putting aside, for a moment, the question of legality)?
Old Dog and I (as well as a few others) had this debate a few months ago. I argued at the time that I did not see the need for a degree given our current level of utilization (especially at the primary school level). He argued (and I am paraphrasing here) that even a general liberal arts education (and, presumably, the ability to think critically that emerges from one) does, in fact, inform the content, method and delivery of the presentation and quality of interaction with our students (and that they deserve no less).
I countered with the fact that even though his argument was undeniably true, the differential benefits of that added value are lost in translation. The specific example I cited was the case of a highly skilled thorasic surgeon who was being underutilized as a scrub nurse in a simple, routine appendectomy. Given the highly limited English level of our students, teachers without degrees but with TEFL certificates and a great deal of enthusiasm, in my last school, seemed to be as well-received by adult students as I was with a PhD and over 20 years of university teaching experience (as measured by our teaching evaluations).
Who is right? I suspect we both are. I know a lot of people with degrees in elementary school education who would take great offense and exception to my assertion that formal training in early-childhood education, for the purposes of teaching listening and speaking skills to foreign students, is superfluous (I would undoubtedly and understandably be assessed as arrogant and misinformed for taking such a position). Yet that position is argued here repeatedly by those without degrees (both with and without certificate training) all of the time (and, yet, the arrogance inherent in that assertion is apparently lost on those who promulgate it here).
What little research there is on psychotherapy outcome repeatedly shows that patient satisfaction is typically unrelated to the therapist's degree level (master's vs. doctorate), academic discipline (e.g., social work vs. psychology), particular post-graduate school of thought trained in (e.g., psychoanalytic vs. cognitive-behavioral) or even years of experience. Findings consistently indicate that patient satisfaction is almost entirely related to the strength of the therapeutic relationship (and that other factors, only loosely related to the ones just mentioned, determine that). Because of these findings, many have argued that no degree is necessary at all in order to be an effective psychotherapist; all that is really needed, they argue, are personal characteristics such as empathy, insightfulness and concern. Jay Haley, one of the founders of strategic family therapy (and who became famous in the 70s for coining the term "schizophrenogenic mother") had no more than his bachelor's degree at the time he developed his most innovative work. Consequently, many have attempted to "work around" certification and licensing laws in various states to allow those with little or no formal training (or education) to hang out shingles and call themselves "psychotherapists." Certified hypnotherapists and "alcohol counselors," as little as five years ago in some states, did not need bachelor's degrees to practice but, instead, simply needed to complete some short-term certification course in order to treat patients (in what was, and in a few isolated cases still is, a loophole around professional state certification and licensing requirements: although these loopholes are all being systematically closed).
I have been intimately and professionally involved with both sides of this debate for many years now. The truth of the matter is, regulations regarding who should practice protect both the professionals and the public that they serve. In my opinion, one doesn't need a PhD or MD degree with eight years of post-graduate training in psychoanalysis to be an effective therapist (although many would disagree with me) but neither should a recovering alcoholic with no more than a high school diploma be allowed to treat suicidal and drug-addicted patients in "psychotherapy" because he's claimed to have successfully "worked a program," or solely because he's just learned, over the past 30 weeks, how to induce hypnotic states of relaxation and suggestibility in willing subjects. That's just plain crazy and grossly irresponsible in my opinion.
Where do we draw the line? How much formal education is truly required to be an effective teacher with students of any age (in any country) and should any distinction be made based on the educational (and age) level of our students? Should our current level of utilization be argued effectively against the need for any formal educational or experiential requirements at all? Do our students (and their parents), in China, have the right to expect that their foreign teachers meet at least the same level of education and training requirements as our Chinese counterparts must in order to be hired as teachers?
Some will argue that, of course, a degree is needed to justifiably refer to oneself as a teacher and a foreign expert. Many will adamantly disagree and insist that specialized EFL certificate training is all that is truly required. A few will take the position that neither a degree nor a certificate is required to be an effective teacher given our current roles as foreign teachers in China. Others will attempt to strike a compromise and argue that a degree should be required for university teaching but not for working with children; they are usually silent on the issue of certificate training. (And most are simply arguing from their own personal sets of strengths and credentials, or lack thereof.) We can acrimoniously debate this topic on this forum all we like and until the cows come home but that will not change one irrefutable fact: To teach legally in China, you do need to be in possession of a bachelor's degree, no matter how superfluous or misguided anyone of us might personally consider that requirement to be. And the reality that educational and work-Visa requirements are not being ubiquitously enforced in China, at this time, (and that many are teaching here �successfully� with various combinations and permutations of degrees, certificates and Visas, or lack thereof), does not change that fact one iota either.
Doc |
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Indiana Jones
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 51
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Phew, I certainly opened the proverbial can of worms. 
Personally -- in the case of teaching conversational english -- I think more emphasis should be on TESOL qualifications rather than university degrees.
Considering the Chinese boom will continue until 2008, I doubt things will change much. China wants 100'000 english language teachers per year -- that's 1 teacher per 10'000 Chinese. They can't afford to be fussy, nor can they afford to hire just anyone. TESOL, CELTA etc -- in my opinion -- should be regarded as more important than university degrees. I've seen so many job advertisements that say a degree is required but TESOL is not necessary. Which makes me wonder what exactly they want -- someone with a genuine interest and passion for teaching english, or someone who has a degree?
That's my two cents -- I reckon foreign language schools should focus more on TESOL qualifications rather than degrees. But then again, the degree is a status thing -- a teacher with a degree appears more impressive and qualified than someone who only has a TESOL certificate. The number of institutions and organisations that offer TESOL certification can also be a problem, there are some dodgy operators out there. So I aslo ask not only for more emphasis on TESOL training rather than degrees, but also where the TESOL training was gained.
If a degree holder doesn't want to get a TESOL certificate -- then are they even that sincere about teaching english? It's a worry. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Babala - I received your PM but, for some inexplicable reason, I am unable to send private messages; my replies just sit endlessly in my outbox.
If you e-mail me with your private address, I will send you my reply.
Doc
[email protected] |
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