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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
| When in reply to my latest post on classroom attendance taking you wrote "Roger is wrong" you were saying I misheard the instructions we several FTs got at our univversity; furthermore in all the years I have worked in China I have never really been allowed to give my students free reign. |
Roger, if there is anyone on this forum who "lords over" others with lesser credentials or, more accurately, less experience, it's you, not me.
I have no idea what set of instructions you were given by the myriad of schools you have worked for in China or, more realistically perhaps, what it is you thought you heard. But I do know for a fact that I am NOT expected to take attendance (in fact, I was specifically told NOT to). If you would like to check for yourself, wait until you are sober and then call my assistant dean (and I do hope, for your sake, that you can speak English far better than you can write it). Her name is Dr. Feng Yuan and her office number is 0898-6625-6355 (while you have her on the phone, maybe you can enlighten her too about your views concerning university-level education in China).
| Roger wrote: |
| I may be wrong, Doc, but of late I have the impression your rapport with your students is characterised by a patronising laisser-faire attitude you may have adopted in order to ignore some unpleasant grealities in your university |
It's not so much that you are wrong, it's that you are entirely projecting. It is obviously yourself you are talking about. Tell us Roger, which school will you be at next year and how many more geometrically virtual years of confused advice about China will that add to your rather pathetic repertoire of self-contradictions, that you entertain us with three to four times per day on these forums? I would try to explain the type of enriching experience I have with my students to you but there is simply no way someone of your ilk would be able to understand it (as you have repeatedly proven).
I happen to enjoy my current position and I do feel useful: both inside the classroom and in the work that I am doing at the hospital. If you are discontent with your role in China, that is too bad but don't try to project that onto me (or others). Unlike you, I had a career (a very busy and notable at that) and now I am enjoying my time in China.
Get yourself a life outside of Dave's ESL Cafe, Roger (assuming it's not too late) or five years from now you will still be lurking around here, approaching your 10,000th post and creating no less confusion.
Doc
PS. And to think there was a period of time that I used to think AsiaTraveler, Old Dog and many others were being too hard on Roger. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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In a conversation I had with a rep from a BC qualified University today told me that they will treat the first year Chinese student like babies and even in classes counting 150..roll will be taken....I my years here I have never heard of instructions not to take roll..but considering the lofty position of the good Doctor...maybe this is a task that the school has identified as below his status...or below any University professor..but certainly this is not SOP of most schools and Universities here or in the US..the 3 absent rule applies in the US as well but is a matter of class room policy or school dictate.
I had a class in college that did not have an attendance policy and so I went the first time and the last...class final exam..which I made a B...upon receiving my grade the professor ask me how I was able to make a b without classroom attendance...I assured him I would have made an A on the final but on the first class he confused me so that I could only come up to the standard of the b.... |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| but certainly this is not SOP of most schools and Universities here or in the US..the 3 absent rule applies in the US as well but is a matter of class room policy or school dictate. |
CJ, you are just full of interesting statistics today, aren't you? Can you point us to a source for this information (as well as for the number of SAFEA accredited institutions in China)?
Not one university I have worked at in the US, nor any university worked at my by any of my colleagues across the states, required attendance, as a matter of university policy at the undergraduate level (although individual professors are certainly free to use attendance and classroom participation in calculating the final grade). It is required, as a matter of policy, at the graduate professional school level because of professional organization accrediting standards.
| cj750 wrote: |
| I had a class in college that did not have an attendance policy and so I went the first time and the last...class final exam..which I made a B...upon receiving my grade the professor ask me how I was able to make a b without classroom attendance...I assured him I would have made an A on the final but on the first class he confused me so that I could only come up to the standard of the b.... |
This entirely makes my point.
The reality is, if you know how to teach and you are interesting, you don't need to take attendance - most of the students will come because they want to.
| cj750 wrote: |
| but considering the lofty position of the good Doctor...maybe this is a task that the school has identified as below his status...or below any University professor |
Actually, a far more accurate explanation lies in the fact that Prof. Feng earned her doctorate in the United States and subsequently held an academic rank and taught at a well-known university in the northeast for ten years before returning to China.
Doc |
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beck's
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I would be interested to hear what PeterGriffen, the OP, has to say about the various points of view raised on this thread. Things are getting quite testy and personal here. I'm thinking that he might be getting pretty well fed up with how his original question has been dealt with. It's my bet he might just tell us all to go "lick his bag." |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:23 am Post subject: |
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I have no honor here. I speak (well, write) my mind. When I agree with someone, I say so. When I disagree with someone, I say so. I generally try to make it clear that what I have to say is usually IN MY OPINION. I make mistakes in these posts - - we all do. I'm not ashamed to say that. People here and in my life have disagreed with me on numerous occasions. Sometimes I try to persuade them to see my side of the issue, sometimes it's just not that important to do so. I don't "take sides" in this forum. In this particular case/issue, I disagreed with Talkdoc (as did a couple others) - - IT SEEMS TO ME that he doesn't take this very well.
As for the "lord it over"-ness of his post(s), I was mainly referring to this thread, but I've seen it in others. IN MY OPINION, he takes a long time to explain his point - - sometimes I get lost in his messages and am not quite sure what he's trying to convey to us, the readers. Is he trying to show off with his vast superior intellect? Is he really trying to help? I'm not always certain of his motives. I'm sure he's an educated man and, obviously, he has a lot of experience in the classroom (let's see, was it 21 years?), but to always "GIVE" advice and rarely "TAKE" it seems a little silly, I FEEL. |
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Old Dog
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 564
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: Talkdoc - Fool |
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Kevin, In any communicative act, where an argument is lucidly and logically expressed, the failure of one party to comprehend on account of incapacity does not automatically mean that the second party has attempted to "lord it over" the first. Talkdoc does me and you and all else on these forums the courtesy of dealing with us as intellectual equals. In this, I think he is a fool.
You don't understand Talkdoc's argument because it is a bit long but you feel there is a sufficient glimmer of understanding to read into the little you do understand a "lording it over you". In analysing a text, maybe you should concentrate first on its surface meaning. After this, dig deeper to discern attitudes and intentions and, if your understanding of language is sufficiently sensitive, you'll truly discern wicked intention if it exists. But if you can't get past the first hurdle of interpretation, maybe it is a bit rash to leap to higher planes of interpretation.
If you can show me where in Talkdoc's text an intelligent reader could find evidence of "lording it over", please point it out to me. I've missed it both in this thread and in the totality of his writing in these forums.
No one denies you the right to express an opinion, to agree or disagree with an argument. But to fail to understand an argument because the text is a bit long and maybe not accompanied by pictures or large font, and then to decide that the reason for all this misunderstanding is that the writer is attempting to "lord it over you" is perhaps a little mistaken.
When I was quite young, I did not understand Shakespeare. He was a little long in his writing too, I thought; however, I saw that the fault lay within me. I did not feel he was "lording it over me".
This thread gave me the distinct impression that a few who feel intimidated by Talkdoc's intellect saw him as being isolated and, true to the law of the jungle, came in for the kill - and not by gentlemen's rules. The thread looked to me like a scene from Life and Death in the Serengeti. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:20 am Post subject: |
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oops, sorry - - try again below.
Last edited by kev7161 on Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Poor PeterGriffin - - we have become so entangled in our own crowing, the original theme of this thread has long ago been abandoned. But, that's the way it goes (quite often) here at Dave's. But, I've been issued a challenge and I have a few minutes of free time, so here goes:
Sometimes it's not WHAT a person is saying, but rather HOW that person says it. For example:
Talkdoc wrote on March 10th:
| Quote: |
| You need to see if you can engage them in a discussion about the underlying process. Tell them you have the feeling they don't want to be there and ask them for feedback/confirmation (as soon as the first person speaks, the ice will be broken). These college kids are actively resisting you and the only way to treat resistance is to openly engage it. You need to make the resistance the focus of the discussion instead of attempting to avoid or defeat it with interesting activities. You need to "join" with them in the resistance: tell them you understand that English is difficult and that many of them don't like it or even see the need for it (engage them in a simple discussion about being forced to take a class they don’t want or need. |
I'm certainly not that thin-skinned and this particular response was directed toward the OP, but how many times do you count the word "need" in the above quote? You need to do this and you need to do that. I think a better way of addressing someone (dare I say it? a more professional way) is to say: "you should do this" or "If it were me, I'd try this" . . . and so on. I certainly don't know the OP's history of ESL teaching, this could be his very first job, but there's that tone I was talking about.
Once myself and Roger and others started to disagree with Talkdoc's policy of mandatory class attendance, here are some responses from him:
Talkdoc wrote on March 12th:
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| Roger, I have been a university professor for over 21 years now and this is the most absurd claptrap I have ever read from anyone claiming to know what he or she is doing as an educator. |
I looked back at the posts made by Roger for this thread only, and didn't see where he had directed a comment (rude or civilized) toward Talkdoc. Obviously, there is a certain animosity between them from previous threads so there must be a history. But this particular response from Talkdoc seemed a little patronizing and certainly unprofessional.
Later, in that same post, Talkdoc wrote:
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| From a classroom management perspective, forcing attendance is a grave error. No experienced and responsible educator (at the college level, that is) is going to waste his or her time, as well as the rest of the class's time, trying to engage students who clearly do not want to be in attendance. This is not primary school Mr. Rogers. |
If I were coming here for the first time and reading this post, I would certainly have to wonder who Talkdoc is and why he's saying I (who may well take attendance every day) was not a responsible educator.
On March 13th, I wrote:
| Quote: |
| I disagree with TalkDoc on so many levels. Granted, I don't teach at the university level, rather the Senior high, so bear with me. |
Then later I wrote (after listing my reasons on why I disagreed):
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| In my humble opinion, Talkdoc is trying to justify why he doesn't have better control over his students. No, you don't have to be a Nazi about it, but a few upfront rules would be nice. Especially in a foreign language class, I just feel that class attendance/participation should be part of the grade. Otherwise, what's the point? However, if Talkdoc's (or anyone else's reading this) class is about the mechanics of English - - then I have a different opinion of what I am saying above. My views I listed are based on a full spectrum of English learning: reading, writing, speaking, pronunciation, reasoning, etc. |
Instead of defending himself (not that he needs to, mind you) he instead shot back:
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| Although after reading your comments, and particularly in light of Indiana Jones's recent assertion that one simply cannot be serious about teaching in China in the absence of TESOL certification, I am beginning to wonder if after 21 years of university teaching, I shouldn't be seriously considering a career change. Oh the humanity. |
Reminding us, yet again, of his length of time in the teaching profession. Now, I may not always "get" someone's sarcasm or intentions by reading of the posts, but it seems like to me that he is saying his years of expertise far outweigh mine and that his learned opinions are much more valid than mine - - that's just what I'm getting, mind you. He enforces that by saying:
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| Well, no matter what I decide to do with the rest of my life, it's at least obvious to my esteemed senior colleagues, Kevin and Roger, that I have no place teaching in a Chinese university. I'm just hoping I can make this career change before my superiors get wise to the fact that I have "no control over my students" and that I am attempting to "import" America's social problems into this university. God help me. (And you thought you had problems - HA!) |
And then after I, in a childish way I'll admit, made a sarcastic comment on his years of teaching, he brushed me off as an imbecile (my word, not his) and tried to correct my correct word usage of "bear with me". Once I pointed out that my usage was correct, he didn't apologize (not that I needed one) or even edit his original post.
Well, this is one long a$$ed post, and I don't need to reiterate every single thing that I, Roger, Talkdoc, Old Dog, or the numerous other contributors have posted, but I just tried to highlight a few examples where Talkdoc's supposed superior attitude shines through.
Thank you for your time (if you made it this far).
PS: By the way, I rarely disagree with Talkdoc. I often don't engage in message exchanges with him as our teaching styles and mannerisms are quite different, but when I DO disagree with him (this is the second time in about 5 months time, I think), then all hell breaks loose. From now on I will be sensible and just bypass his posts. It won't hurt him, it won't hurt me, and it won't hurt the OP of any particular thread. |
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Old Dog
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 564
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:44 am Post subject: Trab |
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Kevin, I am usually very pleased to read your postings, as much as anything because it is a refreshing sincerity that seems always to shine through in your writing.
However, when I find you taking umbrage at the following -
| Quote: |
| You need to see if you can engage them in a discussion about the underlying process. Tell them you have the feeling they don't want to be there and ask them for feedback/confirmation (as soon as the first person speaks, the ice will be broken). These college kids are actively resisting you and the only way to treat resistance is to openly engage it. You need to make the resistance the focus of the discussion instead of attempting to avoid or defeat it with interesting activities. You need to "join" with them in the resistance: tell them you understand that English is difficult and that many of them don't like it or even see the need for it (engage them in a simple discussion about being forced to take a class they don�t want or need. |
and offering it as evidence of an unseemly superior attitude, I am quite flabbergasted.
This is normal mentor talk. After all, the OP was asking for advice and I thought that Talkdoc, in the posting you object to, presented a valuable piece of advice in a quite masterly way. I am quite amazed that you or anyone else could have taken offence at it. You are reading an intention, an attitude into the text that is just not there - and so I interpret the remainder of your lastest posting.
Maybe we all come to China from different professional worlds - and it is to a professional world that Talkdoc directs himself. If there are readers who are not comfortable with the discourse of this environment, then we can hardly expect Talkdoc to cast about for some lowest common denominator in which to express his views or through which to offer professional advice.
I don't know what backgrounds everyone comes from when they come to China as Foreign Experts in English language teaching; however, having done so, they should accept that professional discourse will follow certain conventions of language. If someone arrives, innocent of professional talk, it's no use their playing Trabb's boy to those who are not.
Last edited by Old Dog on Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Tomatoes/Tomahtoes - - I was just using an example of where a reader could interpret the "you need to" as being talked down to. If nobody took offense (I didn't take offense, I was just offering it as evidence to the jury), then no harm, no foul - - but there are a few other instances where the attitude and tone are definitely in the stratosphere, and I showed those as well - - if I had a couple hours (I don't, class in 15 minutes), I could probably find a dozen more.
I don't take offense that you are defending Talkdoc's manner of posting; you present your thoughts in a sensible and reasonable way. If someone were to say, "I agree with Kev, because . . . " then I hope you could support their decisions without necessarily agreeing with them.
So, have we beat this horse to death yet? |
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Old Dog
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 564
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: Dead horse |
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I think so!
Best wishes. |
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PeterGriffin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| I would be interested to hear what PeterGriffen, the OP, has to say about the various points of view raised on this thread. Things are getting quite testy and personal here. I'm thinking that he might be getting pretty well fed up with how his original question has been dealt with. It's my bet he might just tell us all to go "lick his bag." |
No I am not fed up, every post usually ends up with talkdoc trying to dominate the original discussion so I am pretty used to it now. I can now say there is no problem with the calss I mentioned because of all of your help. So please stop fuking talking about attendance. Also I truly want to say thanks for your postings, and no I don't want you to lick my bag |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Bad mouth |
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| Old Dog wrote: |
...
.... Normally, then � and I�ll return later to the term �normally�, I�d be of the view that Talkdoc�s university is likely to be somewhat superior to Roger�s (who, forum members should remember amid the welter of pontifical ex cathedra utterances that he excretes, is very much a greenhorn in terms of university teaching).
�normal� any longer �normal� � or has Roger�s disciplinarian demon corrupted even a respectable organization? Like the neurotic teachers of my acquaintance, Mr Roger appears to have demanded of his administration that he be permitted to apply more strict rules than it had been either their or Roger�s ft predecessors� practice previously to apply! The Second Coming had arrived apparently!
When I read the rubbish with all its unpleasant viciousness that Roger dealt out in this thread, I have no trouble in understanding why Roger has wandered from job to job, unloved apparently despite his many �successes�, during his sojourn in China (since September 1994). more intemperate ways. |
Ah, Old Dog thinks "Roger owes" him further replies and clarifications? I mustn't "slink" off the debate?
Old Dog: I reply when it makes sense to do so. I stop when I see someone is merely slinging mud at others. And I also warned you before: if you engage in character assassination, i.e. if you spread lies and innuendo of a personal kind I will eventually resort to taking action.
First thing: a clarification.
You opined in the above excerpt that
"TALKDOC'S UNIVERSITY IS SOMEWHAT SUPERIOR TO" mine. Agreed?
What makes you believe that? The fact that his FAO studied at an American university? Or the fact that Hainan Univ.ersity hired a qualified psychotherapist to do English conversation classes?
FYI: China Strategic, which describes itself as "China Strategic is run bybusinessmen for businessmen. We offer practical deliverables and solutions through our collective experience and hands-on approach to business. Our services range from industry and market research to China Instant Office out-sourcing solutions."
A consultancy then. They compiled, for thebenefit of their various expat clients based in China, an unofficial list of CHINA'S TOP 100 RANKED UNIVERSITIES.
Please, obtain a copy for yourself, Old Dog, via [email protected], tel. (021) 62 79 73 30.
In this list, my university is among four based in Guangzhou; the best among them is ranked 10 (Nos. 1 and 2 are Tsinghua and Peking universities respectively), and rank 77.
The majority of universities are not even ranked at all. Guess what? Your intimate friend, Dr. Talk's university, is one of those also-rans.
But even I would agree that such rankings say very little in terms of teaching effectiveness, discipline or worthiness. They are good for advertising and PR purposes. Still, would you prefer your own child to attend a famous university or an unknown one?
Anyway, this is the due refutation of your preposterous claim.
On the other hand, I have to say: I disagree with you over whether I owe you anything. I have nothing to gain from discussing moot points with someone so prejudiced and boorish as you.
You have since your first month in this forum shown to have a big chip on your shoulder, and many other forum members have had run-ins with you.
As for me, you have lost no time to show your abrasiveness, a quality that has never let up. No matter what I say you must show your opposition if not animosity.
You have called me "stupid", a drunk, a bordello visitor, an impostor, a "rogue" and a lot else besides. All these appellations were posted without much proof to substantiate your opinion and in a haughty manner befitting a judge that has the privilege to demand explanations and justifications from the accused.
I tell you: you have been wrong fora long time, and I have gracefully tolerated much of your enmity so far; but questioning my moral integrity is too much, and it is YOUR JOB TO PROVE YOUR ALLEGATIONS.
I demand, Old Dog, that you stop your ad hominem attacks and concentrate on the issues everybody else is discussing. If you want to imply one more time that I am duplicitous, insincere, a crook, then I will ask you to come out with your proof; meanwhile I am willing to prove that I have spent as much time in China as you once had the temerity to doubt; my proof will be various contracts, release letters and testimonials, including one from an international school based in Hong Kong where I taught for two years. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well, as I have been the object of discussion for three days now, I hope it is okay for me to reply without appearing unduly overbearing.
Although I have mostly enjoyed myself on this forum for the past year or so, it has become quite obvious to me that my presence here has become a real source of contention for some and, quite honestly, it's no longer fun for me. I am not here to antagonize or provoke anyone; that is not why I post, nor do I need this forum for personal or professional affirmation. And, ultimately, if I read the OP correctly, he found nothing useful in my advice. What he needed to hear, he got far better from others. This is a particularly poignant message and one that is not lost on me: and it certainly confirms Old Dog�s assessment of me as a �fool,� in the context that he defined.
I give advice to those who request it when I feel I have something to say because of my education and experience. I do entirely consider the source when asking for and taking advice. No, I am not going to ask for or take advice about university teaching from someone who admits he's never done it before; why would I possibly want to do that? We were not talking about our favorite episodes of Seinfeld on this thread; if we had been, your opinion Kevin, as well as the opinions of others, would have at least the same weight as mine (perhaps more so if you had viewed more episodes). We were talking about academic management within a university setting and why you feel my experience in this area doesn't render me a more informed source than you, (and many others) or that I should be careful to pretend that it doesn�t in the manner that I post, is way beyond me. Whatever this dynamic might speak to, I am convinced it says absolutely nothing about me.
Old Dog's assessment of the group dynamics at play here is dead accurate (and not just for forum members). I specifically recall a thread started by Spiderman, around last Christmas, in which he raised the issue of Christmas without Christ (I'm paraphrasing). I was trounced upon by you Kevin, as well as rest of the usual others, for stating my views (and I sure as hell wasn't stating them as a professor or a psychologist). I was repeatedly attacked with demeaning ad hominem remarks for asserting something as outrageously and unforgivably arrogant and superior as �Christmas is a Christian holiday and it is about the celebration of the birth of Christ. If you personally remove him from it (because you don�t believe in Christ), you are no longer celebrating Christmas: although you might be participating in the spirit of the celebration� (of course, I am paraphrasing here but this is fair synopsis of what my stated position was). Old Dog wasn't a member back then but, if I remember correctly, Go_ABs was the one to finally jump in to inquire, of you and others, "Why are you guys 'rat packing' the Doc?" (His words, not mine.) Do you remember that? The point is, Old Dog isn�t the first to raise this point; it�s been raised at least once before by another forum member who never, neither before nor afterwards, wrote even one additional word about me or my posts (so it�s fair to say he isn�t biased, assuming you want to argue that Old Dog is).
Good luck.
Doc
PS. Thank you for pointing out the bear/bare error. That�s the result of counting on copyeditors to correct one�s work for 20 years; the minor corrections go unnoticed and so too do the nature of the mistakes. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: |
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a real source of contention for some and, quite honestly, it's no longer fun for me. I am not here to antagonize or provoke anyone; that is not why I post, nor do I need this forum for personal or professional affirmation.
Doc..no ones word (on these post) have the strength to be a real bone of contention...after all..we all come from diffrrent sides of this Chinese reality and our truths are as we know it..and intentional or not, posting a view point that flys in the face of others experience, may win you frends among those who take up the cause of the true professionals in ESL but with those who are unsure about the advice posted it may seem over authoritive and condesending...what ever the case may be...even when a poster tell the Dave's world that he didnt find your advice relevent, it may still be food for thought among those who havent ask the question yet..and in this regard the anwser is a successfull one...and this is an affirmation, but one you may not be aware of.
Those that ask requests here are asking in way to afford them the answers that they want to hear and even those who have little experience should be given the "social nicety" of consideration..to not do so, would indicate to some that the "educator" has a closed mind... I would remind you that students who have never taught Universitie classes but their reviews are important to ESL carreers have input and likely you would listen to them..so why not a brother or sister ESL'er..
As to informed sources in China..many of us..just don't buy it..who is more qualified...who knows ..this is the internet..and any one can post for any number of reasons...and what I hope is not beyond you is that when you post you viewpoint (and Doc to most of us..it is just that)it is the opinion of the viewer that renders you as the most informed source. The care one takes in their posting is up to the poster..but when you post with disregard for other opinions as being valid (even if in you experienced wisdom it is not) then this is an invite to toss a few stones at the ole'man.
Remember when you dish out "remarks" it may seem unforgivably arrogant and superior and you will have to expect to get some flack back..but this in noway should stop your activity because the forem is a balance of many opinions and ideas..not all valid but all with equal authority... |
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