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yodetta
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 68
Location: California, USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: Question re professional M.A. degrees |
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Hello,
I'd love to work/teach in Japan, have a B.A. and am considering obtaining a professional M.A. in Organizational Management & Psychology before doing so.
Do any of you think this kind of degree would open doors to jobs beyond teaching English and/or higher salaried positions? (I'm not fluent in Japanese, and I know this would help considerably.)
How do you think such a degree would be seen in that job market?
Please advise, and thank you kindly
Yodetta |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Question re professional M.A. degrees |
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| yodetta wrote: |
Hello,
I'd love to work/teach in Japan, have a B.A. and am considering obtaining a professional M.A. in Organizational Management & Psychology before doing so.
Do any of you think this kind of degree would open doors to jobs beyond teaching English and/or higher salaried positions? (I'm not fluent in Japanese, and I know this would help considerably.)
How do you think such a degree would be seen in that job market?
Please advise, and thank you kindly
Yodetta |
Frankly, the degree you mentioned would not help you very much at all. First, I've never seen a Japanese university ad for a position in "organizational management" and/or "psychology" which did not require fluency in Japanese. (The private sector would be out for the same reason.) Hence, you'd have little to no chance of getting a job "beyond teaching English."
Second, 90% of f/t English-related positions in Japanese universities either require or prefer an MA in TESOL or Applied Linguistics. Obviously, you'd almost invariably lose out on all of those positions. As for the remaining 10%, since you'd be competing with both applicants with and without these degrees, I'd imagine the competition would be even more difficult. Do you have ESL/EFL teaching experience? Publications relevant to the field? If yes, maybe you'll get lucky. If not, I'd say it's almost impossible.
As for ALT positions, Glenski and others know much more about them than I do, but my gut feeling is that the MA you mention would not help you there as well. |
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yodetta
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 68
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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thank you, taikibansei, for your thoughts. what is your experience in Japan?
I have no doubt you are correct about the need for Japanese language skill...I guess I was wondering about positions with American concerns, language schools, NGOs etc....but that may be a whole other ball o' wax.
So, maybe I should obtain a Cambridge/Trinity TEFL and try teaching before I go back to grad school...but since this MA program has coures in international management and marketing, I wondered about its utility in Japan.
btw, are there opportunities for English teachers to learn Japanese while teaching in Japan? Are there schools/classes...or does one need to find private tutors?
Yodetta |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| yodetta wrote: |
| thank you, taikibansei, for your thoughts. what is your experience in Japan? |
With regards to teaching experience in Japan, 10 years, including 6 years teaching full-time at a national university and 2 years teaching at a prefectural university. My experience in Japan, however, is both quite a bit longer and ongoing--part of being married to a Japanese and having continuing work/research interests there.
| Quote: |
| I have no doubt you are correct about the need for Japanese language skill...I guess I was wondering about positions with American concerns, language schools, NGOs etc....but that may be a whole other ball o' wax. |
Most "American concerns" with offices in Japan wouldn't necessarily require that particular MA. Far more important would be Japanese language ability--this being Japan. Without Japanese ability (or really advanced computer skills), probably your best bet would be to get hired at a US company which has an office in Japan and hope they transfer you someday to it.
As for 'language' schools, I'm not sure how having an MA in "Organizational Management & Psychology" would help you either get hired or perform well.
| Quote: |
| So, maybe I should obtain a Cambridge/Trinity TEFL and try teaching before I go back to grad school...but since this MA program has coures in international management and marketing, I wondered about its utility in Japan. |
You don't need such a cert to teach in Japan--as long as you are looking to teach at a 'language school.' These are often entry level positions--and they prefer to train their own.
Finally, quite a number of Japanese people have MAs in international management and marketing from US universities--without Japanese language ability, what could you bring to the table that they couldn't? I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely you'd get hired "outside of teaching English" with just that MA. Maybe try getting hired in a Japanese company with a US office and work your way up?
| Quote: |
| btw, are there opportunities for English teachers to learn Japanese while teaching in Japan? Are there schools/classes...or does one need to find private tutors? |
Yes, there are plenty of opportunities to study Japanese--the problem is making time to take advantage of them.
Good luck. |
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yodetta
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 68
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: no cert? |
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ok. now i'm a bit confused....you say i don't need a TEFL certification to teach English in Japan? Almost everything I've read on this website suggests that I do need one, and rank the Trinity/Cambridge the best!
Are you suggesting that I can just apply directly to the language schools posting jobs without certification? (I'm wondering what kind of resume they like to see...)
Y |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Language schools in Japan do not ask for TEFL certs. They're good to have, but are not a requirement to teach or find a job. |
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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To clarify for you:
English Conversation Schools or Dispatches(companies that send teachers to public or private schools, kinders, companies, jukus etc) do not require (as a rule) that you have any teaching experience, or TESOL certifications of any kind. ECC NOVA AEON GEOS (Known as the big 4)etc do not require any certs to work for them.
To teach in some International Secondary schools(elementary, jr high high schools) they require MA's in teaching or TESOL fields for some and almost inveriably that you have teacher certifications from your home country.
To teach at a University an MA in an Education or TESOL field, Japanese ability and publications are the minimum in 99% of the cases.
So as you can see, a TESOL certification alone has no major precident to allow you to get a job with most of the above. If you have it, it simply helps with getting consideration for some smaller conversation schools but it isn't the only consideration.
An MA in an unrelated field has no prevalence or bearing. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| I asked this several months ago, but I want get an opinion from a different group. I know that an MA in TESOL or applied linguistics is the most focused, but what are the prospects for somebody with an MA in general education or English, along with six years of EFL experience in Japan, fair Japanese (and improving), and hopefully an EFL publication or two? Would that be able to go anywhere the MA in TESOL or applied linguistics can? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Vince wrote: |
| I asked this several months ago, but I want get an opinion from a different group. I know that an MA in TESOL or applied linguistics is the most focused, but what are the prospects for somebody with an MA in general education or English, along with six years of EFL experience in Japan, fair Japanese (and improving), and hopefully an EFL publication or two? Would that be able to go anywhere the MA in TESOL or applied linguistics can? |
Vince, it sounds like you are chasing after university jobs as those are the only ones that require publications. Most universities require a Masters degree, in any related discipline such as English Linguistics, ESL/TESOL. Your prospects are as good as any, and in my personal experience, whether you get hired is a matter of timing, luck and connections. I have applied for jobs where they have everything the school asks for and more, but still not been hired. Sometimes someone on the faculty has a person they want in the position and they have enough clout to sway the vote. Maybe you have an article in an area they are interested in. Japanese ability is a definite plus, and my feeling is that anything lower than Level 2 of the JLPT is not worth putting on your resume. Hopefully 2 publications is not good enough, as they will want to see copies, and the more the better. If you are going to get published you may as well get cracking as the school is not going to sit around waiting for you to publish your rough draft.
A recent article came out in the JALT CUE magazine about the future prospects for university teachers and the general consensus is that if you have no publications you will be left behind, a PHd will be an absolute minimum for full time tenured jobs and even many term-limit positions. Japanese ability, consistent publications and some specialised skill area such as teaching TOEFL or TOEIC is recommended. Universities dont just look at what Masters degree you have as that simply gets you into the interview. its all the other things, the networking, the development of your skills and knowledge base that will put you in front when applying for jobs here. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| Vince, it sounds like you are chasing after university jobs as those are the only ones that require publications. |
I want to have a few publications under belt in case I find a good university position, but I'd be just as happy teaching at a high school if it pays well. In fact, a high school job might suit me better.
| Quote: |
| ...in my personal experience, whether you get hired is a matter of timing, luck and connections. |
That has been my experience too. The two eikaiwa jobs that started my teaching career were the only ones I landed through interviews. All the vocational school and specialized jobs came through connections. I'll definitely be contacting some old friends in Tokyo once I decide on a departure date.
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| Maybe you have an article in an area they are interested in. Hopefully 2 publications is not good enough, as they will want to see copies, and the more the better. |
It used to be that landing these jobs was almost a scam. Just slap something down that has the right superficial appearance, look gaijin enough, and you were in. Having experience in Japan, I have to wonder if these places know what they're looking at (or much care) when you offer a publication. Are these stepped-up qualifications an improvement for the right reason, or are we just keeping face? Not that I'm looking for a scam, but I just want to know what's really happening.
| Quote: |
| ...its all the other things...the development of your skills and knowledge base that will put you in front when applying for jobs here. |
I can see schools like Todai or Keio maintaining these standards, but I'd be surprised if the average schools kept pace. With enrollment sagging and belts tightening, I can't imagine them paying enough to attract or keep people with such qualifications. In fact, my experience has been that most Japanese schools don't want to be held to these kinds of standards. Westerners with these kinds of qualifications might threaten the status quo. That's just coming from my experience, which tops off at the vocational school level.
There might be fluxuations as the Japanese go through their systemic motions, but I think a master degree and a couple publications will on average be the line. The only significant change might be higher expectations for Japanese ability. I agree that level 2 would probably be considered a minimum, with 1 strongly preferred. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Vince wrote: |
It used to be that landing these jobs was almost a scam. Just slap something down that has the right superficial appearance, look gaijin enough, and you were in. Having experience in Japan, I have to wonder if these places know what they're looking at (or much care) when you offer a publication. Are these stepped-up qualifications an improvement for the right reason, or are we just keeping face? Not that I'm looking for a scam, but I just want to know what's really happening. |
Very interesting questions embedded here. My answers--yes, and no. They know the big journal names in the individual fields, and being published in them is a very big thing to a Japanese hiring committee. Are these publications increasingly required for the 'right reasons' though? I'd say no.
I think many of these universities just want to be able to write on their university webpage that their foreigners have PhDs, multiple publications, etc.--i.e., as kind of a marketing strategy. Also, when Paul writes, "Maybe you have an article in an area they are interested in," I think he is touching upon another reason behind these stricter requirements. Increasingly, the tenured Japanese faculty themselves are being held to stricter standards for promotion; also, weaker faculty at some universities may now be transferred, demoted or even let go. (A Japanese friend of mine at a national university just had his teaching responsibilities forcibly transferred from the cush English department to the engineering department...where he'll have to teach the heathens  there English....) So, yeah, having a strong publication record in a relevant field is very important to the hiring committee--especially if it seems you'd be able to help them get some English publications as well.
| Quote: |
| I can see schools like Todai or Keio maintaining these standards, but I'd be surprised if the average schools kept pace. With enrollment sagging and belts tightening, I can't imagine them paying enough to attract or keep people with such qualifications. In fact, my experience has been that most Japanese schools don't want to be held to these kinds of standards. Westerners with these kinds of qualifications might threaten the status quo. That's just coming from my experience, which tops off at the vocational school level. |
Japanese university salaries, on average, are already about twice those earned at universities in the States. Hence, there'd be no problem with Japanese universities "paying enough" to attract people. To give you an idea, I'm in a comparatively high paying T-T position in the States; just my summer and winter bonus (i.e., not counting my regular salary) in Japan added up to more than my yearly income here. Also, outside of housing (which I got for free in Japan anyway), I haven't found things that much cheaper outside of Japan.... 
| Quote: |
| There might be fluxuations as the Japanese go through their systemic motions, but I think a master degree and a couple publications will on average be the line. The only significant change might be higher expectations for Japanese ability. I agree that level 2 would probably be considered a minimum, with 1 strongly preferred. |
The only problem with this assertion is that, increasingly, the people applying to these positions do have a PhD, publications, and Japanese ability. It's a buyer's market. Heck, I sent Paul a pm last year about a 2-year college which wanted a native English speaker with a PhD, 3 books, and 10 articles  (In effect, this person would have had more publications than all his/her Japanese colleagues combined....) |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Vince"]
| Quote: |
Maybe you have an article in an area they are interested in. Hopefully 2 publications is not good enough, as they will want to see copies, and the more the better.
It used to be that landing these jobs was almost a scam. Just slap something down that has the right superficial appearance, look gaijin enough, and you were in. Having experience in Japan, I have to wonder if these places know what they're looking at (or much care) when you offer a publication. Are these stepped-up qualifications an improvement for the right reason, or are we just keeping face? Not that I'm looking for a scam, but I just want to know what's really happening.. |
Vince , I just wonder if you are aware what the competition is for these university jobs. Last year and the year before I applied for full time jobs all over the country. Some had 40 or 50 applications for one job. One of my colleagues has 27 publications and a PhD. I got hired with 7 publications and my job interview was conducted only in Japanese.
If you think you have a chance with a Masters and 2 slapped together publications, along with 30 other people (up to 100 applicants in some Tokyo jobs) all power to you.
Also how do you define a "scam". The salaries and work conditions are pretty clear in the job posting and you can usually tell whether it is a good university or not. they are not trying to rip you off, not like the eikaiwas. Its not that its a scam, but you are simply under-qualified to apply for it. Publications is not all they look for. In my present job they looked at my publishing record and presentations, my Japanese ability, My 10 years teaching experience. Publicatiions is only a small part of it.
| Quote: |
I can see schools like Todai or Keio maintaining these standards, but I'd be surprised if the average schools kept pace. With enrollment sagging and belts tightening, I can't imagine them paying enough to attract or keep people with such qualifications. In fact, my experience has been that most Japanese schools don't want to be held to these kinds of standards. Westerners with these kinds of qualifications might threaten the status quo. That's just coming from my experience, which tops off at the vocational school level.
. |
Have you ever worked at a university? Do you know the difference between a good school and a average one? and what is your definition of "average"?
Last year I was at a national university for five years and am now at a private university and teach at another one part time. If you have only worked at a vocational school my guess is you have no idea what they are looking for, seeing as the bar is generally higher for university jobs.
How can westerners threaten the status quo. Most of the jobs are actually for foriegn teachers, and japanese can not apply for them. They ask for certain qualifications from those teachers who apply so saying that a foreigner with a phD is a threat when thats what they ask for in the posting is pure baloney. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| Vince , I just wonder if you are aware what the competition is for these university jobs. Last year and the year before I applied for full time jobs all over the country. Some had 40 or 50 applications for one job. One of my colleagues has 27 publications and a PhD. I got hired with 7 publications and my job interview was conducted only in Japanese. |
I didn't realize the market was teeming with published PhDs. Your point about competition is well taken.
| Quote: |
| If you think you have a chance with a Masters and 2 slapped together publications, along with 30 other people (up to 100 applicants in some Tokyo jobs) all power to you. |
Just a couple years ago, I knew several people with master degrees who had good long-term university positions. I spoke with them about getting into the university level, and they recommended a master degree as the minimum and said that a PhD would probably be overkill. That's the advice I was going on. If that's no longer the case, so be it.
Where did I say I was going to slap the publications together? Having only a couple publications doesn't mean that those publications were a half-baked effort.
| Quote: |
| Also how do you define a "scam"... |
I was talking about things in the past being so easy for many teachers (feeling that they had their job mainly because they were gaijin), that it almost had the ring of getting away with something.
| Quote: |
| How can westerners threaten the status quo. Most of the jobs are actually for foriegn teachers, and japanese can not apply for them. They ask for certain qualifications from those teachers who apply so saying that a foreigner with a phD is a threat when thats what they ask for in the posting is pure baloney. |
It was my understanding that many Japanese teachers have master degrees and don't have the publication and upgrade requirements that are typical of universities back home. If that's the status quo, Japanese teachers wouldn't likely appreciate foreigners with more advanced degrees who by their example might raise the bar and cause envy. But Takibansei points out that the requirements for Japanese teachers are being raised. That's good to hear.
Like I said, I'm looking more toward high school positions, but just wanted to know what my options were, if any, at the university level. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:14 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Vince"]
| Quote: |
Just a couple years ago, I knew several people with master degrees who had good long-term university positions. I spoke with them about getting into the university level, and they recommended a master degree as the minimum and said that a PhD would probably be overkill. That's the advice I was going on. If that's no longer the case, so be it.
. |
Yes you can still get a job with a Masters degree but you are going to have 50 guys that have seen the same ad. If the ad was in Japanese there will be less applicants, though some schools will ask for a PhD so they can cut down the numbers. You have to be in to win, even though a PhD isnt needed for teaching. Much better to have one though than be on the outside looking in.
| Vince wrote: |
| [Where did I say I was going to slap the publications together? Having only a couple publications doesn't mean that those publications were a half-baked effort.. |
You said "hopefully" two publications which seemed to me that you hadnt written them yet. Publications take time to write well, can take between 6 months to a year to get published and may be too late if they are not already in print. A bird in the hand..... Two publications is a little on the thing side, in my opinion and represents an absolute bare minimum. It sounds like you want to slide through on the barest of requirements.
| Vince wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also how do you define a "scam"... |
I was talking about things in the past being so easy for many teachers (feeling that they had their job mainly because they were gaijin), that it almost had the ring of getting away with something.
. |
They are hired becasus ethey are foreigners and the classes are oral communication classes. Most universities will have some full time positions for foreigners so saying they were hired because they are gaijin sounds a bit strange, all things being equal. being a gaijin is part of the job description but they arent hired just because of that. How being a foreigner is a scam when applying for a uni job is beyond me though.
| Vince wrote: |
[It was my understanding that many Japanese teachers have master degrees and don't have the publication and upgrade requirements that are typical of universities back home. If that's the status quo, Japanese teachers wouldn't likely appreciate foreigners with more advanced degrees who by their example might raise the bar and cause envy. But Takibansei points out that the requirements for Japanese teachers are being raised. That's good to hear.
. |
Some have Masters degrees and publications, no PhDs and as once they are hired its very hard to fire Japanese teachers. Foreigners on the other hand are on a short leash, have to publish to renew their contracts and get hired. Do PhDs to improve their skills. In some cases the foreigner is more qualified academically than a Japanese staff member but told as they havent published in the school journal they are not qualified enough.
Of course they will feel envy, but universities have no intention of changing the 3 year limits so they can bring in new foreign teachers every few years. The aim is to stop particular teachers becoming too comfortable and in positions of power within a university. Its nothing to do with qualifications but more to do with university politics and giving more control to foreign teachers.
Because of the new privatisation of national universities, Japanese professors are now on three year contracts, and they can be replaced for for poor performance and bad teaching. Foreigners get replaced becasuse they are not the right nationality and has little or nothing to do with performance and ability. |
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