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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:38 am Post subject: > |
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| Quote: |
| Legal jobs in China pay RMB3,000-6,000 per month by law. |
Nonsense, there is no legally determined upper limit. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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There may not be a legally determined upper limit, but there most definitely is a set range within which most if not all legal posittions for foreign experts fall within. This range was developed by SAFEA and the government as is the amount that I was referring to.
More information about this can be found here.
Of course there are lots of teachers in China earning more than this, but not completely legally. Maybe you would like to shed more light on your reasons for disagreeing with me! |
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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: > |
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Yeah, well I woldn't be taking too much notice of that site. Looks like somebody's been pulling figures out of the air.
First of course, there is no mention of a legal upper limit.
Did you not say this
| Quote: |
| Legal jobs in China pay RMB3,000-6,000 per month BY LAW. |
(my caps for emphasis.)
A glaring mistake on that site is
| Quote: |
China Provides
A tax-free salary of 5,000 RMB per month |
It's 4000.
After seeing such an obvious mistake I couldn't be bothered with the rest. If they can't get the basics right how can the rest be taken seriously.
[quote]Maybe you would like to shed more light on your reasons for disagreeing with me![quote]
I know lots of guys working legally (at a single insitution, Z visa, residents permit) All earning more than RMB6k , sometimes lots more. That website is not reliable. Who is this safea outfit anyway? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: > |
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| cujobytes wrote: |
| Who is this safea outfit anyway? |
That's a pretty scary question coming from someone who is giving advice to others about China. Why not just read the website that I posted the link to and you would know.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| First of course, there is no mention of a legal upper limit. |
Nor did I say that there was an 'upper limit'. You were the one who mentioned 'upper limit' (twice in two posts) so if you don't agree that there is one then stop talking about it.
I posted a range that can be expected for legal teaching work in China, a range that is regulated by SAFEA. Most people in legal positions can expect to earn around RMB3,000-6,000 per month. You will note that the site I linked to shows maximum wages a little higher than this, but those positions are for people with doctorate degrees and therefore are not likely to apply to the majority.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| I know lots of guys working legally (at a single insitution, Z visa, residents permit) All earning more than RMB6k , sometimes lots more. |
So you are basing your comments upon what 'the guys' are earning. Fair enough but allow me to retort.
Firstly, you have to take into consideration the fudge factor in those cases. Considering that wages within fully legal positions for foreign experts are so low, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if people who take these jobs overinflate their salaries when questioned. I know that I would if I were in their situation if only to avoid the inevitable questions as to why you would work for so little.
Secondly, are the Z visas held by these individuals legitimate and obtained for teaching at the actual institutions that your friends are teaching at. Again, you need to take into account that they may not be willing to disclose the exact details of their employment to you, or it is possible that they may not be fully aware of the legitimacy of their employment either. I am not trying to suggest that your friends are numbskulls or anything, but I am just trying to show that things are not always as they seem with employment in China.
Thirdly, what kinds of institutions do your friends work for. Are they working for private buxibans, government schools, private schools, government or private universities?
So what do I base my opinions upon:
1. Advertisements - Have a look at adevrtisements for teaching jobs in China. You will see a split between positions offering RMB3,000-5,000 per month, and the others offering over RMB8,000-10,000 or even more per month. Almost without exception, the low paying positions are with public, government run universities; while the high paying positions are with private training companies. The legality of working within those private training companies can immediately be called into question as a large number of teachers actually teach in those institutions illegally.
If the wages of foreign experts were not regulated then why would government schools who are obviously hiring legally offer pretty consistent wages that are significantly different from the wages offered by private training companies? The most obvious reason is that the private training companies aren't hiring legally anyway, so they don't feel the need to follow pay regulations.
2. SAFEA - I suggest that you have a read through the website for that organization. Their advisory role is quite clear, and the guys behind that site obviously have more contact with the education officials in China than either of us do. Much of the legislation that pertains to English teachers in China has been published under the name of SAFEA.
3. Common-sense - When one considers that the wages offered by schools offering positions in China vary so widely, there has to be a reason that people would accept these lower paying positions, and a reason why the schools offering these lower wages don't feel a need to become more competitive. The reason is that they don't need to become more competitive as the teachers who choose to work for them are choosing those schools based upon reputation and legality.
I would suggest that you do a bit of research on this topic and then come back and post if you still feel that there isn't regulation of wages for legal teaching work for foreign experts. |
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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:48 am Post subject: > |
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Yes, these guys are all working at well recognized institutions (universities) on legal Z visas.
I suggest you start this thread over there (Cina forum) and find out the situation on the ground from people on the ground.
The suggested salary ranges are about right but it's certainly not an indication that someone is working illegally if their salary is higher.
As for 'who is SAFEA', they actually sound like a recruiter to me. And not knowing who they are in no way disqualifies me from giving advice on China since I've been around these boards and in China a good few years now and heard their name pop up only occassionaly, I would suggest they are irrelevant, particularly considering the amount of erroneous information on their website.
I have never put too much faith in organizations. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: Re: > |
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| cujobytes wrote: |
| Yes, these guys are all working at well recognized institutions (universities) on legal Z visas. |
Well assuming that what you say is accurate then I would suggest that there is more to their situations than we are aware of. The government regulations are pretty clear on what I have been saying.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| I suggest you start this thread over there (Cina forum) and find out the situation on the ground from people on the ground. |
Unfortunately, just because people are on the ground in China doesn't automatically qualify them as experts on teaching in China. That is one of the big differences between teaching in China and Taiwan. Often times teachers in China are pretty well isolated in their schools and only rarely have a chance to really discuss things with other teachers (teachers working in big cities being the obvious exception). This isolation is most obvious when working for some of the legal university jobs that we are referring to. Therefore while comments that users may have about their particular situations would be valid, their opinions about the system as a whole would overall be just that - opinions.
Feel free to raise the matter over on the China forum if you feel the need to support your point, but I am comfortable with the information that I have at hand. Having said this, I would be most interested if you had some evidence that disproved what I said, and I am not above accepting the new information should it come to hand.
For clarification, I have never stated that there is an upper limit to legal pay ranges. What I have stated is that SAFEA in conjunction with the relevant government departments have established a pay schedule for legal teaching work for foreign experts in China, and that this pay schedule (range) is used by legal employers. Illegal employers on the other hand set their own pay scales which are often high in excess of this range set by SAFEA.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| The suggested salary ranges are about right but it's certainly not an indication that someone is working illegally if their salary is higher. |
I believe that it is exactly that. A position offering RMB8,000 or above for a starting wage is highly likely, if not definitely, an illegal position. We must bear in mind though the debate about the legality of working on an F visa as opposed to a Z visa. In my view the Z visa is the only legal visa for teachers working on a one year contract in China. Many of those private institutions have teachers teach on F visas, which is a bit of a gray area as far as legality. For the sake of clarity, I suggest that we concentrate only upon Z visa holders as this is the only category of visa that everyone agrees is fully legal for teaching work in China.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| As for 'who is SAFEA', they actually sound like a recruiter to me. And not knowing who they are in no way disqualifies me from giving advice on China... |
Well in my book, your not knowing who SAFEA is does call your knowledge about the legalities of teaching in China into question. The fact that others on the China forum may not know who they are either does not validate the opinion that SAFEA are unimportant, but calls into question the overall knowledge of some of the users on that board. Don't get me wrong, there are some extremely knowledgible users over there, and I learn a lot from reading their posts, but you need to learn how to sort the wheat from the chaff. I am sure if you ask someone like 'Roger' who SAFEA are, he will know. He may not hold a very high opinion of them, but he will at least know how they fit into the picture.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| I've been around these boards and in China a good few years now and heard their name pop up only occassionaly, I would suggest they are irrelevant, particularly considering the amount of erroneous information on their website. |
For the benefit of anyone who may be reading this thread, why not post some of these inaccuracies here, complete with corrections. I think that if you are calling their information into question, you should at least allow someone to reply to your questions. That seems only fair, and may just vindicate your position on this subject.
| cujobytes wrote: |
| I have never put too much faith in organizations. |
Go it alone if you like, but that doesn't detract from the facts. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Pay and benefits in Shanghai are expected to surpass Taiwan this year. The number of available positions in Shanghai already exceeds the number of available teaching positions for foreign teachers on all of Taiwan.
If you are looking to get paid Taiwan is no longer on the top of the list. Japan still rates in the top 5 as far as pay and benefits for foreign teachers and number 1 in Asia.
Please read this,
http://www.geocities.com/taiwanteacher2002/Success.html
Good luck,
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| Pay and benefits in Shanghai are expected to surpass Taiwan this year. |
Crap!
RMB1 is equal to NTD3.8
The highest paying jobs in Shanghai are likely to be in the order of anything up to RMB15,000 (NTD57,000). Bear in mind these jobs are with private institutes which are almost entirely illegal positions. The highest pay for a Bachelors Degree holder within a legal job is likely to be in the order of RMB6,000 (NTD23,000).
Therefore the highest paying teaching jobs in Shanghai are offering about NTD57,000 per month, whereas the highest paying jobs in Taiwan are paying about double that at NTD100,000 per month.
The average job would pay about NTD23,000 in China (some legal, most illegal), whereas the average here in Taiwan is about NTD55,000-65,000 per month.
Maybe you point us all in the direction of where your information comes from Aristotle. |
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puiwaihin
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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RE: China vs. Taiwan
If you are working in China and making over 10,000rmb/month then your salary can compare with a Taiwan salary in terms of what you keep. But that's an exceptional income in China. If you have an exceptional income in Taiwan, however, you can do much better.
I loved working in China. If the money were the same I'd go back and work there again. But I can't equal what I've gotten here, even if I was given a 10,000+ job. (I was offered that sort of deal in China, so I know you can get that much, but if you just look at what is typically offered you're looking at half of that). |
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puiwaihin
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: |
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One more note:
Clark may be right about the quasi-legal status of some higher paying jobs. When I worked in China a number of teachers who had their resident visa had their school listed as a local university rather than the chain school. It may be that this is a standard practice.
And any time a major chain school says you can't come in for work for a day because there is a government inspection it sets off warning bells.
Certain laws are pretty strict: don't kill, don't steal, don't criticisize the government too loudly. The rest are less powerful than guanxi.
But I wouldn't make a deal out of this legal stuff. My feeling is that if you get a resident visa all's good. China is not Taiwan (but just don't say that in China!) |
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