|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mpan
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Taoyuan, Taiwan
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:40 am Post subject: Views on deposits |
 |
|
| Hey all, I have been searching for a job in Taoyuan here for a little over 2 months now. I have been to many interviews and demos and have been running into a consistent problem. Although tealit.com does have an articel written by a Taiwanese lawyer stating that a school taking a deposit is an illegal action on their part every single school I have encountered so far does it. Even the place I am working part time for had a clause in the "new" contract they asked me to sign as I was walking up the stairs to teach my first class. I refused to accept the contract as is and gave the impression that I would leave without teaching if they did not change it. I become more and more familiar with the "Taiwanese" way of dealing with contracts and would like to hear some thoughts from some of the people that have been here a while. Is it unrealistic to think I will ever find a school that is going to be at least semi straight with me? So Please, every one give their thoughts on deposits. I would very much like to hear it. Oh and sorry if this has been a thread before. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Views on deposits |
|
|
| mpan wrote: |
| Hey all, I have been searching for a job in Taoyuan here for a little over 2 months now. I have been to many interviews and demos and have been running into a consistent problem. Although tealit.com does have an articel written by a Taiwanese lawyer stating that a school taking a deposit is an illegal action on their part every single school I have encountered so far does it. Even the place I am working part time for had a clause in the "new" contract they asked me to sign as I was walking up the stairs to teach my first class. I refused to accept the contract as is and gave the impression that I would leave without teaching if they did not change it. I become more and more familiar with the "Taiwanese" way of dealing with contracts and would like to hear some thoughts from some of the people that have been here a while. Is it unrealistic to think I will ever find a school that is going to be at least semi straight with me? So Please, every one give their thoughts on deposits. I would very much like to hear it. Oh and sorry if this has been a thread before. |
Deposits are illegal. Tell them to stuff their "contract". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Unfortunately, while deposits are illegal, it is a common practice out here in Taoyuan. I think you are right to refuse the deposit on an illegal part time job. There is really no need for a contract in this case anyway. Most places I have seen out here have some form of financial penalty in their deals. It could just be a matter of delayed pay (ie paying you 10 days after the end of the month, so that if you run on payday, you have worked 10 days for free). Would you mind posting the specifics of the deposit clauses you have seen? About the worst I've ever seen was the 100k deposit at EZ English. You seem to have the right idea in your attempts to negotiate them out of potential deals. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you have the courage.
Sign the contract and make sure that the owner signs as well. Then take your copy of the contract and walk. Scan the contract and send it to SSETT.
[email protected]
If approved, we will file an official complaint with various government ministries and departments seeking disciplinary action against your perspective employer.
We have done this an a few areas on Taiwan and it always has the same effect.
All the schools in the area hear about it and stop asking for deposits.
However the complaints must be made in the name of the person signing the contract.
A small group of people working for a common and specific goal can be much more effective than an entire army of people.
Think about it.
[email protected]
Good luck!
A.
Last edited by Aristotle on Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Are the schools you are referring to actually requiring an upfront deposit or bond, or are they insitituting a penalty should you breach? The distinction is important as the first is illegal but the second is perfectly legal in Taiwan.
Have a look at this article about deposits if you haven't already done so as you may find some useful information there.
How much are the deposits that the schools are asking for, and how much are you losing by not signing a contract? You might want to consider this when weighing up your options.
Finally, remember that illegal clauses in a contract are not enforceable, and in the case of deposit taking, foreigners have received a reversal upon lodging a complaint.
| Aristotle wrote: |
Sign the contract and make sure that the owner signs as well. Then take your copy of the contract and walk. Scan the contract and send it to SSETT.
If approved, we will file an official complaint with various government ministries and departments seeking disciplinary action against your perspective employer. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mpan
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Taoyuan, Taiwan
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Well I have seen a few different "clauses". At a semi-large chain school that is based in Taoyuan( at least I think it is based in Taoyuan), their condition was to keep the first 2 weeks of pay until the end of the year contract. The school I work at now wanted to keep $5000NT until the second term of my contract. I know it may not seem like a lot of money but from what I have read in various posts on the web some places will say whatever they need to to make sure that some, most or all of a deposit will not be returned. There have been various other contracts that I did not even bother to look at too closely because it just seemed too sketchy when i saw things like the first months pay would be held for the first 6 months of the contract. I have done some substituting for a couple of recruiters that employed some fellow Canadians that I met here. As far as the people I met, the recruiter was keeping $3000NT every week from their pay as a "trust fund". The recruiter was constantly asking me to work for them ful time but would not answer any of my questions about the way the deposits worked. They have now left the employment of that recruiter because of numerous organizational problems. I stopped sub'ing for them after a week because I felt they were not being straight with me from the begining. I would like to keep names out of it jsut because I do not want it to come back and bite me in the ass in any way. I know that may sound a little paranoid but I am new here and just want to work and pay off my student loans. Thanks to all for responding, it is helping me to put it all in perspective. Oh and TaoyuanSteve, that place I PM'ed you about that was swanky, they said there was a deposit and would not tell me any more about it. The would not say how much it was or when I would get it back. I don't think I am going to bother with them, I just got bad vibes from a lot of things about the interview (including the fact that after filling out the application form they left me to sit in a class room by myself for 35 minutes). Please keep your comments coming. It helps. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mpan wrote: |
| At a semi-large chain school that is based in Taoyuan( at least I think it is based in Taoyuan), their condition was to keep the first 2 weeks of pay until the end of the year contract. The school I work at now wanted to keep $5000NT until the second term of my contract. |
| mpan wrote: |
| There have been various other contracts that I did not even bother to look at too closely because it just seemed too sketchy when i saw things like the first months pay would be held for the first 6 months of the contract. |
| mpan wrote: |
| As far as the people I met, the recruiter was keeping $3000NT every week from their pay as a "trust fund". |
All of the above qualify as bonds or deposits and are therefore not legally enforceable. If you are particularly concerned about this practice then it is no doubt wise that you just avoid these employers altogether, however if all the 'good jobs' in Taoyuan are with schools that insist upon these deposits then there are some ways that you could deal with this to your advantage.
Firstly, if you ever enter into a contract that has a deposit or penalty clause, then you should always do your math based upon the worst case scenario that you won't get your money back. If you can earn good money from the job even though you are forfeiting some through a penalty or deposit then you can make a decision about whether that is good enough for you. You could take a safer, lower paying job that doesn't have a deposit/penalty situation and still end up with less money in your pocket than you would have even if you had forfeited the deposit or penalty on the higher paying job. If the above doesn't hold true then I would suggest that you think hard about whether you really need to take that job.
Remember too that the longer that you look for work and don't committ to a job, the more money you are losing. At the end of the day you may lose more money this way than you could by signing a contract today and losing your deposit. What I mean is that the job may pay NTD50,000 a month (about NTD12,000 a week) with a deposit of NTD5,000. So you are losing NTD12,000 per week looking for work, when at the end of the day the maximum you would have lost through the deposit is NTD5,000.
The concept of deposits and penalties is based upon the idea that if you stay, then they need not apply. This is generally what happens, but in some cases these deposits may be withheld unreasonably. This is why it is important to ensure that you haven't factored these in to your calculations about what you are really earning here.
Finally, every contract that I have ever seen here has some form of penalty for teachers who leave early. The three most common are deposits/bonds, penalties levied at the end through withholding of an amount from the last months pay, and failure to pay bonuses earned during the course of the contract. Therefore, no matter which way you jump, you can be pretty sure that there will be a financial penalty no matter which school you end up at.
Of these it could be argued that the charging of a deposit is the best one for teachers as it is illegal and can (and has been) reversed through mediation here in Taiwan. If your contract stipluates a penalty or non-payment of bonuses for premature breach then you are obliged to pay that upon breach. If however your contract doesn't mention these but does stipulate the upfront payment of a deposit or bond, then should you leave that employers employ and they fail to return this deposit then you stand a pretty good chance of getting this money back if you lodge a claim.
The decision is yours to make, but my suggestion is to chose a school that you think you would be happy with and th | | |
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
