Job Discussion Forums

[mpan]

Hey all, I have been searching for a job in Taoyuan here for a little over 2 months now. I have been to many interviews and demos and have been running into a consistent problem. Although tealit.com does have an articel written by a Taiwanese lawyer stating that a school taking a deposit is an illegal action on their part every single school I have encountered so far does it. Even the place I am working part time for had a clause in the "new" contract they asked me to sign as I was walking up the stairs to teach my first class. I refused to accept the contract as is and gave the impression that I would leave without teaching if they did not change it. I become more and more familiar with the "Taiwanese" way of dealing with contracts and would like to hear some thoughts from some of the people that have been here a while. Is it unrealistic to think I will ever find a school that is going to be at least semi straight with me? So Please, every one give their thoughts on deposits. I would very much like to hear it. Oh and sorry if this has been a thread before.

[Pop Fly]

[TaoyuanSteve]

Unfortunately, while deposits are illegal, it is a common practice out here in Taoyuan. I think you are right to refuse the deposit on an illegal part time job. There is really no need for a contract in this case anyway. Most places I have seen out here have some form of financial penalty in their deals. It could just be a matter of delayed pay (ie paying you 10 days after the end of the month, so that if you run on payday, you have worked 10 days for free). Would you mind posting the specifics of the deposit clauses you have seen? About the worst I've ever seen was the 100k deposit at EZ English. You seem to have the right idea in your attempts to negotiate them out of potential deals.

[Aristotle]

If you have the courage.
Sign the contract and make sure that the owner signs as well. Then take your copy of the contract and walk. Scan the contract and send it to SSETT.
[email protected]
If approved, we will file an official complaint with various government ministries and departments seeking disciplinary action against your perspective employer.
We have done this an a few areas on Taiwan and it always has the same effect.
All the schools in the area hear about it and stop asking for deposits.
However the complaints must be made in the name of the person signing the contract.
A small group of people working for a common and specific goal can be much more effective than an entire army of people.
Think about it.
[email protected]
Good luck!
A.

[clark.w.griswald]

Are the schools you are referring to actually requiring an upfront deposit or bond, or are they insitituting a penalty should you breach? The distinction is important as the first is illegal but the second is perfectly legal in Taiwan.

Have a look at this article about deposits if you haven't already done so as you may find some useful information there.

How much are the deposits that the schools are asking for, and how much are you losing by not signing a contract? You might want to consider this when weighing up your options.

Finally, remember that illegal clauses in a contract are not enforceable, and in the case of deposit taking, foreigners have received a reversal upon lodging a complaint.

[mpan]

Well I have seen a few different "clauses". At a semi-large chain school that is based in Taoyuan( at least I think it is based in Taoyuan), their condition was to keep the first 2 weeks of pay until the end of the year contract. The school I work at now wanted to keep $5000NT until the second term of my contract. I know it may not seem like a lot of money but from what I have read in various posts on the web some places will say whatever they need to to make sure that some, most or all of a deposit will not be returned. There have been various other contracts that I did not even bother to look at too closely because it just seemed too sketchy when i saw things like the first months pay would be held for the first 6 months of the contract. I have done some substituting for a couple of recruiters that employed some fellow Canadians that I met here. As far as the people I met, the recruiter was keeping $3000NT every week from their pay as a "trust fund". The recruiter was constantly asking me to work for them ful time but would not answer any of my questions about the way the deposits worked. They have now left the employment of that recruiter because of numerous organizational problems. I stopped sub'ing for them after a week because I felt they were not being straight with me from the begining. I would like to keep names out of it jsut because I do not want it to come back and bite me in the ass in any way. I know that may sound a little paranoid but I am new here and just want to work and pay off my student loans. Thanks to all for responding, it is helping me to put it all in perspective. Oh and TaoyuanSteve, that place I PM'ed you about that was swanky, they said there was a deposit and would not tell me any more about it. The would not say how much it was or when I would get it back. I don't think I am going to bother with them, I just got bad vibes from a lot of things about the interview (including the fact that after filling out the application form they left me to sit in a class room by myself for 35 minutes). Please keep your comments coming. It helps.

[clark.w.griswald]

[puiwaihin]

Work at a reputable school, honor your end of the bargain, get all your money in the end.

Don't sign a contract where there is a sizable deposit.

If you honor your deal and they try to stiff you by not paying you, get a new job, stay in Taiwan, and then go after them with the law on your side.

[Ki]

Those are sound words Clark, if only I wasn't so hung up on the illegality and immorality of all of these deposits and penalty clauses. Deposits aside, penalty clauses (like losing two weeks pay) only serve to ensure that teachers don't give any notice upon leaving their job. And I don't blame them. Normally I would frown upon this sort of thing but the majority of schools in Taiwan give little choice.

[clark.w.griswald]

I am on record as saying that if I was a school owner then I doubt that I would levy a penalty against any teacher who wanted to leave. I wouldn't want someone working for me who was only sticking around to avoid paying a penalty. That said, I don't blame employers one iota for wanting to somehow ensure that an employee is at least semi-serious when he or she enters into a contract for a one year position.

What many people seem to forget is that these penalties are not only levied upon foreigners. In fact they are common place among the local population as well. In fact, although the penalties that locals pay often involve less money than the penalties we pay, when considered in proportion to the pay that they receive, the penalties for locals are often higher than they are for us foreigners.

The other consideration is that back home we would generally show respect to our employer when leaving, if only for fear that our new employer may just contact our ex-employer as a reference. We don't enjoy the same anonymity back home that we do here, and as a result we tend to act more responsibly back home. If the levying of penalties is what it takes to get employees to act responsibly and abide by the terms of the agreement that they enter into then so be it. These clauses are written into contracts and therefore one can decide whether or not they agree to this practice before taking a job.

[TaoyuanSteve]

I tend to agree with you Ki. More often than not employers encourage running with penalties and withheld deposits for resigning from a job, even if notice is given. Contracts here mostly benefit the employer and the issue of penalties and deposits is a good example of this. There is also a lot of immoral and illegal stuff put into contracts here, stuff that would be against the law in more progessive countries and sometimes it is even in this one. The idea of a contract in the first place is simply to meet a government requirement for a work permit. It should not be viewed as a tenure of indentured servitude. It should not keep employees in jobs that are hellish or for which they are just a bad fit. Those of us in good jobs sometimes forget some real baddies are out there. We are all good people and we usually don't take a job with the intention of leaving it suddenly and after only a short time. But sometimes things change. Sometimes we find a school is just not working out for us; sometimes the boss is a maniac; sometimes we just aren't happy in job no matter how good it is and sometimes we just want to go home (happens sometimes, you know. This isn't god's country). I've heard the "you shouln't have signed" nonsense a few too many times. These kinds of penalty clauses are difficult, if not impossible, to avoid completely. I don't blame people for sometimes signing contracts with clauses they sometimes don't agree with (in the same way I don't blame people when they've signed a contract with illegal clauses an fight to get them nullified). Someone in a bad job should be able to leave it without facing hardship causing penalties. The schools go out of ther way to protect themselves at the expense of the employees. I can't blame a teacher, when faced with this attitude and environment, for running to prtect their own interests. The best schools don't need to use coercion and deposits/penalties to keep employees.

[mpan]

thanks very much for all your post's on this thread. It has helped me a lot. My only question now is, where the hell are all these good companies that have the good contracts? I stayed in Canada to finish my degree on the advice of freinds because they said it would put me in a better position for jobs and allow me to work here legally. Well now i have the ability to work legally and I find out that it does not reall matter because no one here seems to give much of a crap about the law. Sorry, I know that sounds bitter but I am getting a little frustrated with all of this. I just want a job where I don't have to worry about getting ripped off by my employer. Keep the comments coming. PM me if you want, I appreciate all the advice. Cheers.

[matchstick_man]

I took a job with a $20,000 deposit. I saw the money at the end of the contract. However I was paying 5,000 a month for the first four months coupled with paying 20 percent tax (not to forget the presently no longer favourable for nonAmerican's fluctuating exchange rate) this is not a good position to be in while getting yourself established or in my case re-established.

I met the teachers who lasted a short time under the school's management and they had not paid a deposit. I didn't know this at the time I signed the contract. They were the reason for the introduction of the deposit. During the time I was there three or four other teachers also paid deposits. All the teachers were either returnees or inexperienced and also had work permit expenses and ARC etc to pay for. The money was returrned although one teacher was threatened with the possibilty of not getting the money back after resigning. I was asked to stay another year at that particular school but declined as the whole deposit issue was playing in mind for almost an entire year as was the possibility of not getting the money back. One part of the contract said the money would be returned if the teacher left on good terms. Personally I see "good terms" as a grey area.

Personally, I'm in no hurry to take a job with a deposit again. It can be seen as enforced savings, however someone else is collecting interest on your money. I'd also question the reason as to why a deposit has introduced at a school.

[Ki]

I guess that in a lot of areas morality, and sometimes even legality, is subjective. It does depend a lot of whose shoes you are in. I would just like to see a lot more positive constraints (ie bonuses) rather than negative constraints (deposits, clauses).

I have met some teachers who have left without giving notice. If there weren't any of these penalty clauses in their contracts then they would have gladly given two weeks notice or even longer. Which is better for schools? To have teachers give two weeks notice or have teachers suddenly not show up to class? These teachers were just making the best of a bad situation, and for that I do not blame them.

[clark.w.griswald]