Job Discussion Forums

[snielz]

�Holy $%@*!

JUDGEMENT---JUDGEMENT FOR EVERYONE...

Too bad, it is an interesting post until the inevitable degenaration into name-calling and insecuring ranting. Ahh, well, such is life...

Matt, your response (the Condoleeza Rice bit) was thoroughly enjoyable.

I wanted to say moonraven that your response a couple of days ago about the media oligarchs being pitted against Chavez was interesting to hear and in keeping with what I know about Latin America. That is, an incredibly wealthy upper class who want to maintain the status quo (and so often work with the US to do so) and the great majority of people live in or just above poverty (this tends not to be quite as extreme down in the cone of SA but is still not what it should be). Obviously, Chavez is going to be ruffling more than a few feathers of influential people if he is educating and empowering the poor of his country...What if they begin to think for themselves.

But nobody is going to listen if you call them a fool and all but insult their mama.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[gambasbo]

All I would add is that in most countries there's an income below which people are regarded as poor, and also another above which people are regarded as rich. Simplistic I know. And I do believe there is an in between.

Incidentally, just in case anyone says, justifiably, we have wandered off topic, the original poster has e mailed me and I have given him information about teaching here in Bolivia.

Mike

[moonraven]

Don't try to make me responsible for your (unacceptable) behavior, Mike. An adult is responsible for his/her actions. Have the courage to be so.

In Latin America, the region with the most unequal distribution of wealth on the planet, 20% of the people control 60% of the wealth. The 60% that live in extreme poverty control less than 15%. That leaves 20% of the population--of which in most Latin American countries anywhere from 10% to 20% are considered to be living in poverty--but not extreme poverty.

If someone can show me how that indicates the existence of a viable middle class anywhere in Latin America, I'll buy you dinner!

And, for the record, Moonraven has never "mentado la madre" in regard to anyone on this forum. Even when doing so was merited.

And judgment, by the way, is the faculty of reason--if not wisdom. Anyone incapable of judging is not rational.

[Weona]

[moonraven]

Since this is a betting situation, it's up to YOU to show that those figures are off base, and that a middle class actually exists.

No outdated figures, please--in 1994 the poverty quotient was 39 point somthing percent. It has increased substantially since then due to many governments having adopted neo-liberal policies (aka The Consensus of Washington).

If you know about the Gini coefficient, you might have a small chance at understanding how poverty and wealth distribution are measured.

Start by doing an Internet search.

[gambasbo]

That is screaming for a reply. So here it is



Mike

[quote="moonraven"]Don't try to make me responsible for your (unacceptable) behavior, Mike. An adult is responsible for his/her actions. Have the courage to be so.

[matttheboy]

Argentina:

40% living in poverty with 15% living in extreme poverty and unable to buy the most basic goods needed to live.

In Capital Federal the level is about 14.5% living in poverty but rises to 44% in the suburbs. There's a large middle class in Argentina, especially in Buenos Aires which is pretty much a separate country.

The poorest parts of Argentina are in the North of the country which has the highest % of indigenous peoples, bolivians, peruvians and paraguayans and reaches 64.5% poverty levels (NOT extreme poverty, remember).

Check out:

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/03/16/elpais/p-00301.htm

and

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/03/17/opinion/o-02901.htm

I don't have the figures to hand but i've read on numerous occasions that the wealth divide in Chile in greater than in any other Latin American country. It's a rich and prosperous country but the spread of that wealth is very thin. That said, Santiago (and Vina and some of the other towns along the coast) have a very strong middle class-it's (again) up north where divide is seen most.

[Justin Trullinger]

Hmm...asked my students about the middle class here. They all believe they're in it. I find this interesting, because I teach children from a neighborhood where running water is a bit of an anomaly, as well as various adults in government, multinational companies, and all kinds of NGO workers. Yet, apparently, they feel uncomfortable saying they are "rich" or "poor."
To put this in context, most of the underprivileged kids are living in multichild families on a family income of $150-$450, and on this income their families often have to make choices between, food, school supplies, and medical care- This isn't the poorest Ecuador has to offer by a long shot, but to me, deciding which of a child's basic needs to satisfy is poor.

The other end of the spectrum is generally earning a family salary (only Dads work) of between 15 and 100 times as much, and has to choose which posh car to drive, which school to go to, and which European country to take long vacations in. To me this is rich.

I'm thinking of who I know who falls in between, and it seems to be just me, and maybe a few friends. If I say, "I am the middle class of Ecuador," will anyone buy me dinner? Cause I could kindof use it, this month having been a little expensive...

Justin

[matttheboy]

Hey Justin, I think there is a middle class but it's mainly based in Quito (a bit of a running theme in Latin America this-the capital having a middle class and the rest of the country not). When i was in Quito i had friends from the 'rich' who attended San Francisco, drove nice shiny new cars around and went to the States and Europe on holiday. Trying to get them to go out at the weekends and brave all the people that obviously wanted to rob them the second they stepped foot outside their barbed wire protected houses was a bit tricky. Totally paranoid.

I also had friends who were no way near as rich as that, attended the other main Uni (Catolica maybe? i can't remember). These guys could afford to go on holiday within Ecuador, spoke fluent English and drove rubbish cars but leaving the country for a holiday? Forget it. I would call this type of person 'middle class' and there are a lot of them in Quito.

[gambasbo]

I spoke to one of my students on Saturday who earns about 100 dollars a month. I asked her if she regarded herself as rich or poor and she said neither. So I guess its all really down to perception.

Mike

[Weona]

I agree... a lot of it is based on perception. But even with that individual perception, there is clearly a middle class in Latin America and to say that it does NOT exist, spew out some figures and then tell ME to go and research them when asked for their sources is just... I don't know. Credibility is lost, that's for sure.

There is definitely a middle class in Latin America... the gap can be wider or smaller between the rich and the poor depending on the country but a middle class still exists. I haven't traveled extensively throughout Latin America to really base this on comparison nor have I read figures but I think you're right Matt... in that Chile has one of the greatest divisions in wealth. I still think that I fit in with the middle class here although I'm not sure I count being gringa. It's interesting though to assume that because I am a foreigner, light-skinned, light-haired, clear-eyes... that I am of the upper class. Many people here assume that of me (having been called 'cuica' - a term used to describe the upper class)... and I am definitely not. Not on this teacher's salary!

[JZer]

From Siddhartha:

[Ben Round de Bloc]

What's with the incredibly w-i-d-e posts on this thread? All this scrolling back and forth to read them is wearing me out.

[gambasbo]

Good point, as I was wondering about that, too. I thought at first I had accidentally done something to my computer settings.

Mike