Job Discussion Forums

[JZer]

[JZer]

Gregor wrote,

[distiller]

I think the lesson here is that you should get a higher education for the sake of the knowledge and experience, not to make money. If you want to make money, computers and trades like construction or auto repair are quick and often pay more. Also you don't need a degree to start your own business. I loved university and enjoy teaching and wouldn't trade my experiences for anything, certainly not money. In fact I'm going back to start a PhD next fall and it ain't for the cash.

[JZer]

Distiller, I agree with your comments. People should pursue higher education for the knowledge which is another reason which Gregor should probably not try to earn his BA. He would just be in it to become a legal teacher. I can imagine that he will like spend his time spouting how he knows more than the teachers. You cannot learn anything when you think you know it all. I also wanted to demonstrate to people that education does not equate money despite the popular belief to the contrary. Earning the most money means working for your self or pursing a technical skills that pay well. I once had a boss with a high school diploma that earns $300,000 a year and he built the company himself.

[Gregor]

Hmmm...
OK. Carnac: there's a difference between a TEFL certificate and a TESOL Diploma. Of course, saying that a certificate in teaching ESL is equivilant to a Master's degree is absurd. But I didn't say that. Go to the Trinity College, London site and see what I'm talking about (if you can really be asked - it's really a higher qualification for those who want to make TESOL a career). -

http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=tesol_diploma.home

THAT is the qualification I have recently earned. It is post graduate, requiring a first degree or equivalent. Here's a quote from the page: "The LTCL Diploma TESOL is a postgraduate qualification and is recognised by the QCA (Qualifications and Curriculum Authority) at Level 5 of the National Qualifications Framework." If you wanted to look into it further (which I did, because I had the opportunity to pursue the thing), you can find the British QCA, look for Level 5 and find that this diploma is right up there with Master's degrees. It is NOT a Master's degree. All I meant was that it is the equivalent for the puropses of job qualifications. And qualifying for jobs is what this thread is all about.

The rest of you - some of you had some valid points. I can't remember who opined that I'd just strut around, complaining that I knew more than everyone else, anyway, so I shouldn't bother everyone else trying to get a legitimate education. I guess I can see where you might get that impression, but, really, that's not me.
I DO value to educational aspect of studying for a degree. I would not have regretted doing the diploma course I recently finished even had I not passed. It was an awesome experience and I learned TONS from it. I love that as much as everyone else.

Thing is, that is beside the point.
Yes, I could work my life around going after a BA degree. I could do that. Anyone could, even a poor guy with a wife and ten kids. I agree with that and fully believe that. But would it be worth it to me? That's the question, and it's a big one.
At the moment, I couldn't do it. I would have to completely rearrange my life. I am married, I live in China, and I have a very busy and responsible and, at the moment, high preassure job. I am the managing director of a McEnglish School. That's the TEFL equivalent of shift manager at McDonald's; that is to say, an easy job to laugh at and a holy hell of a lot of work. I do about 60 to 70 hours a week, usually five days a week (and the two days off are not together and NEVER actual weekends), often six days a week, occasionally seven. IN THIS JOB, I am not going to study for a BA degree.

What I need to ask myself are some VERY difficult questions:
1. Do I want to go back to the US, ever, to live and work? (I don't know. Doubt it, but I just don't know.)
2. Could I use a diploma mill degree, with my previous experience and educational background to get a U.S. Master's degree or teacher license in a U.S. state? (I don't know. I started this thread to find information about this question, because I have encountered obvious, blatant diploma mills, I've encountered legit universities that offer online education, and I have found a lot of grey area - Regents College, now Excelcior College, has been accused of being the ultimate trash diploma mill, but I have a good friend who took a BA in Liberal Arts from that very institution and got accepted to a Master's program in Boston College. If you can do that with a diploma mill degree, then there we go).
3. What, if anything, is my TESOL Diploma (NOT certificate!) worth in terms of job qualifications in the U.S? Would a dodgy diploma be just rubber-stamped and overlooked if I can trump it with a post-graduate qualifications and YEARS of experience? (I don't know this either, but I now strongly suspect that the answer - infuriating and absurd as I may think it is - is "no, it would not. It would be laughed at.").

So. To clarify: I have respect for education just for the sake of education. I have nothing against that. BUT I also respect alternative forms of education, such as self-education (yes, you CAN learn English, and teaching, from books and experience. It's not brain surgery). And anyway, that's not the issue. Sure, I'd like to quit my job and go to university full-time. I would NOT like to spend a lot of time and money spinning my wheels professionally while I get a degree that will eventually still not help me do what I want to do. Again, the issue is not whether I would learn something and /or enjoy the experience. The issue - the question - is, is it necessary?
And I still haven't answered that question.

[TRCourage]

Dear Gregor....

I have written you a lengthy letter -- please check for new privage messages.

I hope what I had to say will help you decide...

Cricket

[Teacher in Rome]

Gregor

I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about what you wanted to do in the future. Obviously you didn't need a BA to do the job you are doing now, but if you decided to work somewhere else, how much of a hindrance would the absence of a degree be? If you decided to move out of teaching, would you need a degree to get you on the first or second rung of an alternative career?

If your answer to these questions is along the lines of "I don't care - I refuse to study for a degree" then you most likely will have to go it alone, and start something yourself. There are plenty of stories of people with no qualifications earning big bucks. There are also plenty of stories of people with no qualifications earning peanuts...

[JZer]

I just wanted to say that Gregor is a great poster since he actually listens to peoples criticisms. Too many people come on here and ask for someone�s advice and when someone responds with a negative perspective they get offensive. I will give it to Gregor for considering other peoples prospective even if they are negative.

[JZer]

Gregor, since you do not seem to be interested in rearranging your life and earning a B.A. for the sake of education then you will first need to figure if it is necessary for you. The only way you can do that is to figure out what you want in life. After you figure that out then you can ask the posters if a B.A. is necessary. You may even know the answer yourself. I wish you all the luck in your search.

[TRCourage]

[color=darkblue]I decided to create a new thread to tell about that Connecticut college I mentioned above...

MOD EDIT

sorry -- but the thread was deleted, even tho I edited out every last bit of my excitement and enthusiasm.

I no longer feel comfortable telling others about the college I am attending since people here suspect that a state college is paying me to publicize their seemingly unique program. I was kinda hoping it could get to be a sticky where others could post similar types of "external degree" universities. But..... Well, like I said, I don't feel comfortable.

Cricket

[mlomker]

[carnac]

[Gregor]

Now, see, that last post is part of my problem. No one seems to KNOW about this thing!
How did I do a postgrad. without an undergrad? The secret lies in the "or equivalent" phrase. I sat through a three hour interview, discussing English, teaching methods, literature, opinions, music and on and on. We mostly focused on my TEFL certificate (what the course was like, when and where I did it and so on), and what, EXACTLY, I've been doing since. Since what I have been doing is teaching English in foreign countries for nine plus years, studying other languages and continuing my music education in places like China, Latin America and Indonesia, they found in my favor and let me on the course.
Under the British system, evidently, this is possible.
Still, good thing I didn't have to pass a maths exam.
This is all why I balk so much at going back and getting a BA degree. I can continue on and finish the damned Master's degree...in a British university. I've checked.
I have also managed to get the Chinese government, anyway, to accept the diploma as equivalent, at least to the extent of meeting requirements for teaching here.
Check out these links if you doubt what I say about this TESOL Diploma. They talk about what I have recently earned.
This is for the actual college that awarded the thing:
http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=tesol_diploma.home
This is a British government site explaining the weird explanations at the top of the previous site (like "level 5" "QCA" and so on):
http://www.qca.org.uk/493.html
And this is for the same site's database, discussing the paper I earned:
http://www.openquals.org.uk/openquals/qualificationDetails.aspx?QualificationID=1085

If I want to return to the Anglophonic world, I may be better off just immigrating to England. It would be cheaper and easier than going backward and getting a BA in the U.S.

[Stephen Jones]

Dear Gregor

Basically you have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the translator and either by luck or influence over the Chinese immigration authorities as well.

Your Trinity Diploma is not the equivalent of a higher degree anywhere. And certainly not in the UK.

You will not be allowed to work in a Grade 1-12 school anywhere a degree is required, which is pretty well the whole planet.

Your Diploma will give you a good chance of getting a teaching job or a DOS job at plenty of language schools, though if a degree is a requirement for a visa you will have problems outside of China where you appear to have bamboozled your way in.

Apart from this your advice is fairly good. The Trinity Diploma is considered the same as the Cambridge/RSA Delta, and unlike most other vocational TEFL courses is widely recognized. There are plenty of other places where you can do the theory part by distance though. Sheffield Hallam for example allow you to credit the Diploma courses taken towards and MA in TEFL, and if you plan to get work in universities then this option may be the best one.

[deezy]

Here's my say. I too am a DoS at McEnglish. I too work the hours Gregor does. My current degree 'equivalent' is in Photography. (took four solid and wonderful years!). I've been in China a year now. In 7 months I will have finished a two-year Diploma course, which takes up to 20 hours a week of study. I return to Australia for some workshops and assessment in August (yea in the middle of summer school... but that was a condition of my extending my contract), and then again next February to graduate. From there I can start my degree course, with so many credits that I only need one more year (or two if I slow down).

I will be sixty by the time I get my degree. Many people have said I'm wasting my time, why take a degree at this age? But as I say, I'll be sixty in three years time whether I take the degree or not.

Doing the course has kept me mentally agile. It interests me. It even excites me. I love the feeling of achievement each month when I submit my work... which involves case studies, research, assignments, often several thousand words. It stops me going down to the local bar. (well, that's not 'quite' true). I'm doing it because the subject interests me... but also, because without it I cannot do my chosen (next) career in Australia. (I've had several careers in my life).

Will it make me a better teacher? Maybe. I doubt it. I've been teaching for many years, both in Australia, and Europe, not just EFL but business management, business systems, project management, etc. However, my teaching experience and time in China will help with my new career.

I do not believe that a degree makes for a good teacher. I KNOW it doesn't. It gets you the job. That's all. As an ex-HR consultant, when receiving resumes, the first thing I looked for was the qualification... sorry but that's the way it is. If no degree.... file 13. Oh and I don't have a degree in HR either... just many years experience, lots of training courses, and some hefty mentoring. So I was rejecting people with similar education backgrounds to mine, - that was part of my job.

Sorry, all those people who graft away for four years getting information into their heads so that they get that piece of paper....how does that make them good teachers? It just shows they can remember 'stuff', and that they've been self-disciplined, and been through some sort of 'structured' learning. Doesn't mean they can then get in front of a heap of students and impart that, or other knowledge.

But we still have to 'bite the bullet', in that... without this piece of paper... and some BA's are on such pathetic, irrelevant subjects... we cannot get work as teachers, one of the lowest paid professional jobs you can get....in our own countries. You can't get some of the simplest jobs, which didn't use to require a degree...even secretaries need degrees to get the plum secretarial jobs.

Years ago, in the sixties, I wanted to go to University. My teachers were positive I'd do well. But I lay in bed one night and overheard my parents talking about how much they wanted me to do it, but worrying about finding the money, how tough it was going to be for them. And the next day, I told them I didn't want to go. And in those days degrees were worth the paper they were written on.

My son has got an Hons.First in Photography and Fine Art. He's a top fashion photographer in London. He has NEVER had to show his degree to clients. However.... he wants to work in Australia. Although I am now an Australian Citizen, to get his necessary 'points' to get residency, guess what? He needs a degree.

So my advice, --- get a degree, but make sure it's for the right reasons, and a subject that will keep you interested. Take your time... do it over 6-8 years if you like. What the heck, if you aren't planning to go anywhere soon, don't bust your guts while working 70 hours a week. It's what you want to do in the future that counts, because at the moment you are doing what you want.

And I am sick of all those people who think they're better qualified, better teachers/whatever because they've spent a few years being spoonfed, who shove their degrees up the noses of those who have worked years and gained experience in the 'real' world not academia. Balony. They did it easy.

You learn to be a good teacher, by teaching. No piece of paper prepares you. It's like the day I went solo as a glider pilot. I'd been taught how to fly, (I thought). But, as my instructor said, when I landed safely... "NOW you'll really learn to fly". And he was right. I learnt to fly, flying solo.

My 10 yuan worth. I await the flames...