Job Discussion Forums

[Glenski]

lyla,
While I believe you shouldn't have received such a harsh welcome (as dmb put it, this IS a newbie forum, and that precludes a lot of flaming).

I hope you realize that your poor wording was the chief cause, and that you can move on.

No degree in many countries does not mean you cannot get a visa that allows you to work, but it does mean you will be hard-pressed to get one that will let you work. Here in Japan, you can work without a degree under any of the following situations.

1. spouse visa, providing that you are married to a Japanese
2. dependent vids, providing that you are married to a non-Japanese who has a FT job here.
3. student visa, providing that you are enrolled in a Japanese school.
4. cultural visa, providing that you are being taught a traditional craft
5. working holiday visa, if you meet the age requirements and are from the right countries.

There is a 6th category, and it's for a full-fledged work visa, but you must have 3 or more years of work experience in the teaching field.

Other types of work experience really won't count for much (here in Japan, anyway) unless you can get any of these visa types first. Getting past immigration is the first hurdle, and finding an employer to take you on despite your lack of degree or experience is the next one.

I realize that this news may not have actually given you much to go on, but I hope that it clears up things a bit. Good luck.

[Doglover]

Lyla, Im sorry if I was a bit hard on you, but i believe in calling a spade a spade, and want to add a dose of realism here. You realise now that without a degree you can not work in many countries and the ones that are open to you (you dont say where you are looking) the pay, even for people with degrees is quite low. What is your idea of decent? For example a teacher working in Japan with a degree makes about 250,000 yen a month or about $US2500. For a forty hour work week or 160 hours a month that works out to about $14 an hour before tax in Tokyo, the most expensive city in the world to live in. Add in airfare, accomodation, food costs, setting up an apartment and it willl take 6-8 months to break even on your start up costs. $2500 a month is considered a subsistence, entry level salary here.

Go to China where you could probably get by without a degree, and salaries for full time teachers are about $US 500 a month for a person with a degree. A person with no degree can expect to make less than that.

As for communicating with parents, how do you expect to do that if you dont speak the local language? Are you fluent in Chinese or Spanish? I dont know about other countries but in Japan the foreign teacher is an assistant (ALT) to a local teacher, who is the one who interacts with parents and the school authorities. Essentially you are like a team teacher or a hired hand in the classroom. Most foreign teachers also are not allowed to discipline children.

I will also add that on many occasions, it will be the parents who blame the foreign teacher for their teaching, or lack of teaching ability, and I know in Taiwan for example, parents can be quite fickle and fussy over their childrens education. they dont call them little emperors for nothing.
In my experience foreign teachers very rarely deal with parenst

I teach in Japan, which offers comparatively better salaries than many other countries, and schools here are run like business with a profit motive. What also does happen is teachers are treated like chattel as the school owns your visa (in Korea, not Japan), and are treated as disposable temporary commodities and are often expected to work long hours, travel long distances for what is often very low pay. I know in Japan some companies make you pay your own transportation to work.

In my experience companies dont really pay much attention to the things you mentioned like "professionalism" and being able to talk with parents etc. They mainly look for energetic, sociable people, who have a valid work visa, who are native speakers of English, and preferably 'look' foreign. Everything else is icing on the cake and incidental. The bottom line is usually their main consideration and being able to pay low salaries is one of their main priorties, without going broke.

Teachers here are also on relatively short contracts, some as little as only a few months, up to a year which you can renew.

However all of this is water under the bridge, as not having a degree prevents you getting hired in countries where teachers make decent salaries. In my case for example, university teachers here make $50-60,000 a year. New JET teachers straight out fo university start on about $35,000 a year. You have to consider what you can possibly earn with what you have, and as has been mentioned, you will be on a subsistence salary, or less, until you can gain some experience and network into better positions. Your management and accounting experience will mean very little when you are in room full of screaming 8-year olds.

Get the degree for the visa, perhaps do a teacher training course, and then think about coming over, as you will find it very hard to live on what they pay you. Teacher burnout and turnover is very high here, and its unlikely you can make a career out of teaching on low wages, aside from the fact you will be thousands of mile from home.

[lyla]

I can understand your point, cdaniels, about the pros of a tough discussion board. And yes, that is totally true that the experiences of some people teaching overseas can be very discouraging. But isn't it worth the risk? As long as I have clothes on my back and food in my stomach and money to come home if I need to, then to me it's worth it. As for decent pay, I'm definately not doing it for the money. I'm actually taking a big pay cut by pursuing tesl. Decent to me means enough to cover the essentials (as I mentioned above), and not be completely broke afterwards.

[Glenski]

Doglover wrote:

[Doglover]

Glenski, I was thinking more of public elementary schools and kindergartens where foreign teachers are either former JETs, part time dispatch teachers sent to work by their companies to work in a public elementary school. The ones I have met are one or two teachers, the only foreigners in the school, in a staff room of maybe a dozen teachers where may be one or two teahcers speaks some English, and certainly none of the parents. Most school business is conducted in what japanese they know or understand though I have met ALTs with anything from zero to proficient foreign language skills. Public elementary schools make up about 99% of the elementary schools in Japan with 1% being privately run or attached to JS or universities.

[Gordon]

Yes lyla, I too apologize for jumping on you about your "real" world experience. This is the Newbie forum after all.

[tesol1]

Lots of ESL jobs requiring degrees can be obtained by experience alone. As cited above, immigration requirements may sometimes serve as an impediment.

Assuming there are no immigration issues, however, often ESL teachers with 2 or 3 years experience but no degree can still serve as DOS, and many with 3 years experience can still qualify for jobs, even in native English speaking countries, normally reserved for an MaTESOL.

[31]

[EnglishBrian]

lyla

I think your posts on this thread actually show you will do well in this industry. If you get certified then it'll be assumed you can teach, and all the extra skills you identified would be highly persuasive to any DoS interviewing you. Team working, dealing with complaints, showing flexibility etc.

Talking to parents and dealing with complaints in a mature way ARE important. I've taught for the British Council in Hong Kong and Doha and both places have parents days where you have to deal with parents with often very poor quality English - and try doing it after you've just given their kid a report full of grade Ds!

Yes some countries require degrees as a visa requirement, so forget those places. There's a whole world out there, it doesn't stop with Japan, Korea and Taiwan. Check out Central and South America, Eastern Europe or Central Asia. My first job was in Lithuania and while I couldn't save lots on the salary, I was able to live very well locally, have some wonderful experiences and still have a bit left over to stuff under the matress at the end of the month.

I'm in TEFL for life now (got married overseas see) but still talk about my former profession in the UK as my 'real job' - probably always will. Personally I left Britain to escape the real world - and of all the ways people try to do that in this life, TEFL's probably the best.

[YearOfTheDog]

[maxx1234]

hi Lyla

i think that you should give it a go. keep in mind though, without a degree you may only be considered for lower paying positions. there are two types of teachers that i have seen here in China.
1. the professional
2. the dancing monkey.
the professional is the person who has made a career out of teaching English. they will teach theory, often have a permanent position (well, as permanent as you can get in China - up to 5 years), regulate and grade exams, and be treated like a full faculty member.
the dancing monkey is the person who flits from school to school, the backpackers or GAP years, whatever you want to call them. they are put in classes to speak. no lesson plans required. do a dance, sing an english song, (preferably "my heart will go on" or "its a big big world"), read a newspaper article or two, then move on.
But there are jobs for both types of people, always will be.
I think a Tefl certificate is a must. it is like any career, you must retrain and be prepared to work your way up. if you are that committed, not having a degree is something you can work around. But ... if you want a high paying job in a beach resort in the Canary Islands, you have to consider your marketability.

I also think that your work experience could work for you. why not do some research into Business English? many language schools here in China would consider hiring a person who has business experience and a willingness to teach children. "flexible" is the key word here.

[King Of Valencia]

An year of front line experience breathing, seeing, smelling it, is worth more than 4 years studying about it (George Patton)

Life�s experience is truly the greatest of universities (kov)

[waxwing]

I want to be a lion tamer.