Job Discussion Forums

[Nexus]

I don't know about you but I've always used the definite article. However, it seems more popular nowadays in news reports etc for it to be referred to simply as Ukraine.

It was once explained to me that even in Russian, it takes a different preposition (HA rather than B) and this is due to the fact that 'KRAI' has a historical meaning of edge or border.

What do other people think?

[GabeKessel]

Now, it is said "B YkpaiHy" and not "Ha YkpaiHy". The "the" is there for some strange reason that I cannot figure out. Slavic languages do not have a "the" or an "a" so it is untranslatable. In French they say "l'Ukraine" and there is "La France" but in German they do not say "Die Ukraine". In Spanish it was never "La Ucrania". But they do say "La Espana" sometimes.

There was a school of thought that it took on a "the" because it was considered to be a region by English speakers and not a country. But Siberia is a region and Lebanon, Sudan and Gambia are countries and they used to have a "the" and Siberia never had a "the" before it.

The name basically means "outskirt", I guess, but literally U- ( at, around), "Krai"- edge "na" - land/area. "At-the-edge-land".

It does not really matter, but as with most country names, a "the" looks and sounds awkward in English in front of them. That is why Sudan no longer carries a "the".

Sooner or later these strange "the"s drop off.

[rogan]

So the country is actually Ultima Thule or Finisterre ?

[stillnosheep]

Finisterre: Falling. Storms.

[dmb]

What about places in English speaking counties? Isn't a posh part of Liverpool called the Whirral(sp), in London- the Isle of dogs or in Edinburgh- the Hermitage

[Nexus]

Well, here's what I've dug up:

It was popular in the press / news to see the article with Ukraine. As pointed out earlier, Ukrainian has no articles and some peope suggest that its use originated from Ukrainian immigrant scholars who, due to their imperfect knowledge of English, used the form �the Ukraine� in their books - perhaps this just perpetuated the usage rather than started it. Seems arguable though.

We use article 'the' with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands and names with adjectival or compound forms such as the the Dominion of Canada, or the Ukrainian SSR. English grammar, of course, does not require a definite article before the names of singular countries such as England, Canada, etc . Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Highlands, the North, the prairies etc all require the definite article. The Wirral , I think is due to it being the Wirral Peninsula (actually, my brother lives there and a lot of his post just has 'Wirral' but peninsulas take an article) Interestingly, people say 'he lives ON the Wirral' (A friend from the Yucatan says the same and I'd also say the Crimea, but 'in' rather than 'on')

Back to (the) Ukraine, apparently, even The New York Times used to state article use in its Style Guide but has dropped it now - as have other pubications.

It seems that the only correct use would be in apposition to contrast the past with the present. For example, you could say, �The America of George Washington is not the America of George Bush� as well as �The Ukraine of Yushchenko is not the Ukraine of Kravchuk.�

To continue the article can of worms, how about mountains: the Matterhorn, the Eiger, Everest. What's up with that?

[dmb]

Water.... that's what confuses me.
Why do seas, oceans, rivers and firths take the definite article? yet lakes and lochs do not? Any grammatical etymologists out there?

[GabeKessel]

Why were there "the Sudan" and " the Gambia" for quite a long time?

[GabeKessel]

[texastmblwd69]