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love/hate relationship with language of host country
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glace



Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 8
Location: vietnam

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:53 am    Post subject: love/hate relationship with language of host country Reply with quote

I really enjoy teaching and living here in Vietnam. The only problem I seem to have this love/hate relationship with the VN language. I really enjoy studying and learning it and speaking it whenever I have the chance.

Vietnamese is similar to Chinese in that it is a tonal language, it has 5 different tones which completely change the meaning of the word. For example �la�(low tone) = strange, �la� low falling tone = to be, �la� sharp rising tone = a leaf, �la� flat tone = to shout, and �la� falling rising tone = well, I haven�t learned this one yet, but it means something... If the tones weren�t enough, the pronunciation of the many of the vowel, dipthong and consonant sounds are also very different from those of English, and it can be rather difficult to get them down. All of that is fine by me as it keeps it interesting and challenging. It has given me a wonderful hobby here in Vietnam.

After about 3 years of regular study both at school and on my own , my skills are coming along well. My pronunciation(which I have put a lot of effort into) is good and clear, my grammar is getting better and better though I still make quite a few mistakes in some areas where the grammar is remains confusing to me. Vietnamese grammar might be considered rather simple, but it becomes complex in it�s simplicity. There ore no tenses, nouns and verbs often don�t change forms, etc. Also. the listener has to infer a lot of meaning. An English speaker has to fight the tendency to �over grammar� a Vietnamese sentence. For example in English we would say: �If I tell you in advance, it won�t be interesting� compared with Vietnamse �Tell before lose interesting�. My vocabulary is quite strong and my listening skills are not bad as long as I have the vocabulary for the particular subject and/or the speaker doesn�t go ultra fast.

I would probably put my level realistically as pre-intermediate or lower-intermediate. My skills have been and still are steadily building over the course of my study. I can, for example have a conversation about a variety of subjects comfortably for an hour and a half or so with anyone I meet. This is the �love� part. Very Happy

The �hate� part is the amount of times that I have said something to someone in Vietnamese only to be answered back in English. They have understood me fine, but for whatever reason have chosen to answer in English. I feel it�s very rude but more importantly it really erodes my confidence and it takes away the fun and purposefulness of learning the language. This happens in a number of different ways, Let me give you a few examples:

1)The dual language conversation: I say or ask something in Vietnamese and they answer in English. Sometimes this turns into a copetition of sorts, or a ridiculous conversation where I speak vn and they speak English. I feel really self-conscious and unnatural in that situation. This is my least favorite� Sad

2)The O-K, O-K, OK effect. This happens when I make a polite request and the listener answers with a barrage of �O-k, O-k, O-k!� I think this is actually well meaning - they just think they are speaking English. The problem is the tone they say it with sounds to the English ear like �OK, OK!! Stop bothering me!� I don�t see what it would cost them to just answer nicely. Confused

3) The �Oh, you speak Vietnamese?�: Sometimes someone hears me speak Vietnamese and comments in English �You can speak Vietnamese well�. I think to myself, why didn�t you just say it in VN? That would have felt like more of a compliment, or better yet, just engage in some conversation with me. Mad

4)The translation conversation: Sometimes I�ll be in the middle of a conversation and the speaker will translate words for me that I had understood anyway. For example I�ll ask what he studied at college and he�ll answer �Toi hoc nganh vat ly hoc�Physics�. He�ll continue to do so in every other sentence. When that happens I feel that there was no reason for me to speak his language in the first place and that maybe he has judged my level to be to low to understand these words. Confused

5) The laugher: with the person that speaks at a higher level than me, I often feel that their attitude is very condiscending. For example I�ll say something and they laugh as if I had just done a trick. I just can�t imagine a native English speaker laughing at someone who speaking English as a foreign language. Mad

6)Vietnamese lesson?: About a year ago I even had a VN teacher who insited on speaking English unnecissarily. I�m convinced he was more interested in practicing his English than teaching VN. I asked for a replacement. I don�t want to preach, but when teaching English, I rarely speak any VN except maybe the odd joke at break time or to clear up something they just don�t get. I really don�t think they are paying to hear me speak VN and I feel the same about my teachers. Cool

Of course most these examples only happen with people that can speak English or some English. When I speak with someone with no English, it�s fine. But here in Saigon a lot of people speak some level of English and even if it�s really bad they are usually dying to practice it. I sometimes wonder, if I speak the same level as the other speaker, which languge should we speak in? I tend to lean towards VN, because, afterall we�re here in vn. Plus, after teaching all day, I just don�t feel like having the same conversations during my free time. What�s the proper ettiquite?

I really don�t mean to whine, and I should make it clear that I regularly have successful and wonderful communications with all sorts of locals and have found it quite rewarding. It has helped me learn about this culture, made my daily life easier, and improved my own teaching. But what it boils down to is that my biggest fear when speaking Vietnamese is that if I make one mistake, if I say one thing too slowly the other person will switch to English. This has not only hurt my cofidence in speaking VN but in some cases has also made me feel distant from many VN people. I don�t want either of these, so I�m looking for advice. Have any of you had any experiences like these in any foreign languages you have learned? What can I do to overcome or at least deal with this problem in a positive way?
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JonnytheMann



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: I totally sympathize! Reply with quote

Glace, I completely understand what you are talking about. You are not alone in your feelings.

I am so passionate about foreign languages. I studied German for 8 years and speak it fluently. I have really good pronunciation and almost no accent. In fact, when I speak with Germans, they often think I am some type of continental European, not an American.

I absolutely loved the German language before I studied at the University of Regensburg. By the end of my seven months in Germany, the German people had made sure destroy any love I had for speaking their language. Laughing

It is very hurtful when people answer you back in English after you've spoken to them in their language, especially when you are expecting them to speak their language. Honestly, it throws you for a loop when your expecting to hear German (Vietnamese), and you hear English. It erodes all confidence you have. It humiliates you. It makes you assume that your language abilities are terrible. In short, it sucks! And to add injury to insult, we English speakers are constantly criticized as lazy & monolingual (at least by continental Europeans). I mean, I freaking love foreign languages and I almost swore to myself I would never ever speak German again. Can you imagine how discouraged the English speaker who isn't in love with languages feels?

The dual-language conversation sucks. The constant unnecessary translation sucks. The German (Vietnamese) teachers who constantly speak English to you because they really just wanna practice their English suck.

I can totally relate to feeling nervous about making one mistake. Because once you make that one mistake, once you pause for one second to remember the word for "tenacious" or "to emasculate", you know the person you're speaking with is going to lunge into English, if they haven't already.

I hate to be a pessimist, but this will happen to you for the rest of your life. It's just what happens to English speakers. Always. Forever. It never goes away.

If it makes you feel better, people would speak English to my Hungarian friend in Germany too even though his German was flawless. His English was actually crappy! Laughing

What can you do to deal with this problem? Well, I am sure you already know all the mean, spiteful things you can do to fix the problem: speak an unintelligable English dialect, pretend not to understand their English, pretend not to speak English yourself etc.

There is only one constructive way to deal with this problem. You have to appeal to people's egos. If they reply to you in English, say in Vietnamese, "Would you mind speaking Vietnamese? It'd be so awesome of you to help me learn your beautiful language." For the people who translate every 10th word, say "Oh, I'm really trying to learn Vietnamese. Would you mind helping me improve my skills by not translating words you think I might not understand. I'll let you know if I don't understand something." For the teacher who speaks English to you ... do you pay this guy/girl? If so, tell them point-blank to speak no English to you whatsoever.

That is the only solution that I have found. Tell people how you feel. Immediately. Tell them that their actions are eroding your confidence and/or hurting your feelings.
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnytheMann, das stimmt!!!.


I have studied German for 6 years and I will have my M.A. in German Literature in Deceomber. So I can identify with what JohnnytheMann is talking about. I would say that I can talk about anything in German and read about anything (Goethe, Schiller, etc). I am not so strong on pronounciation(i.e. I don't really have a natural talent for hearing languages.)

Anyways I wanted to say that there are about three types of people you will encounter:

1. People who will not speak to you in English as long as you show confidence in speaking their language. They do not use English everyday and if you are living in the country and speak to them they will probably not be confident enough to speak to you in English unless you ask.(Maybe around 50% of the population, higher if you are in a thrid world country)

2. People who have studied in the U.S., Australia, England, or Canada and love English. They will try to speak to you in English as much as they can. Keep in mind that they are not doing it to try to put down your language ability but because they rarely meet a native speaker to practice English with. If you study at a western European university you will often encounter this. It is like if you met someone who spoke Vietnamese in your home country. You would want to try to speak to them in Vietnamese and they might take that as a sign that their English was not that good. Don't take people like this personally. They just want to speak your langauge as much as you want to speak theirs.

3. People who buy into the sterotype that native English speakers are monolingual and cannot speak a second langauge. Talking with these people is hopeless because even if you explain something complicated to them they will still try to translate things for you into English. One of my favorites was when I asked the girlfriend of a guy like this what she meant. I understood the words but wanted her to futher explain what she was trying to get at. He replied by translating the sentence into English and I had to tell him that his translation did me no good since I needed a explainatoin of what she was try to get at and not a translation. I understood the words but not the meaning of the sentence.
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Justin Trullinger



Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to be the foreigner. And yes, there are plenty of people who make funny assumptions about English speakers, or in fact any foreigner. (Here in Ecuador, all foreigners are assumed to be English speakers. )

It can be aggravating. I speak pretty good Spanish. (Started half my lifetime ago, and have been living in Spanish speaking countries for 7 years.) But people still try their elementary level English out, when I really just want to buy a sandwich, and when it could happen a lot faster in Spanish.

The thing is, though, these people are trying TO BE NICE! So try not to be so sensitive, guys. A big part of what we're doing here is cultural eduaction. Not all English speakers are monolingual. Try to show them that. But try not to feel insulted- they usually aren't insulting you. They think you will be THRILLED that they speak "your" language.

People often don't know how to deal with foreigners- and sometimes they try things that can be rather aggravating. But you'll be a much more educational influence on their lives if you see it for what it is- a misguided attempt to be KIND to you.

Just my two cents worth,

Justin
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JonnytheMann



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Speaking Vietnamese to a Vietnamese person ... Reply with quote

You bring up some good points, JZer. But I don't think it's the same when an American who speaks Vietnamese speaks Vietnamese to a Vietnamese person in the States. First of all, this must happen once in a blue moon. But I cannot imagine it eroding the confidence of the Vietnamese person. It would probably be a pleasant surprise. When you are an English speaker, you are subjected to daily linguistic humiliation. Germans are really competitive and really like to feel intellectually superior. I could tell that some people were really annoyed by the fact that I speak German so well. It bothered some of them.

I remember two days before I left Germany I was having lunch with two female friends. One kept interrupting me in English while I was speaking German. It was so frustrating but I just kept speaking in German. Finally I turned to her and said in German that I wanted to speak German and that it really bothered me that she would constantly speak English. She said, "I just want you to speak English because that would really be easier on my ears." She says this to me, some who heard from dozens of Germans during my time in Regensburg that they had never met a foreigner who spoke better German. I just thought to myself that if I couldn't succeed here, no one could. It made me so bitter. That night I went to get some ice cream, and the girl behind the counter replied to me in English. I left Germany two days later, and thought I might just never speak German again because I was so humiliated and discouraged. I've gotten over my bitterness, but when I meet Germans, I don't tell them that I speak their language. I had wanted to be a German teacher, but now I don't any more. Why would I want to teach Americans a language that will just lead them to daily humiliation and frustration?
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ls650



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I understand why the OP is so frustrated: the locals are only doing what you want to do, practice a new language.

Remember, for them it's a lot more important too. You learn the local language so you can learn more about the culture and people; they learn English for financial survival.
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dyak



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 630

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ls650 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why the OP is so frustrated: the locals are only doing what you want to do, practice a new language.

Exactly, imagine studying/being forced to study English for years and years with hardly any native speaker contact, what's your first instinct when you meet a native speaker?
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JonnytheMann



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Oversimplification ... Reply with quote

The OP has some very valid points. I assume that dyak and ls650 must be in Romance-language countries because they don't understand the OP's frustrations. I've never been linguistically humiliated in a Romance-language speaking country. It's a daily occurance for an English-speaker in Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavia, etc.

If people are desperate to practice English, they should ask you in their native language if they can practice English with you. When I try to order a sandwich, I am not "practicing" my German. I'm just trying to live in Germany and go about my daily life. It's honestly confusing to here English when your expecting German. Sometimes I wouldn't even understand the English because I was trying to make out German. It's just really obnoxious. Never met an American in Germany who speaks German who hasn't had the same complaint.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I love bi-lingual conversations. If I'm answered in English when I speak Dutch in Amsterdam, I simply continue in Dutch. When I speak Thai, I invariably get some responses in English. That's just fine with me. We're both getting to practice, and we're both communicating. Isn't communication the function of language (whatever the language)?

If you let your ego get in the way, then you're communicating something about yourself that you might not want to be communicating. Wink
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matttheboy



Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 854
Location: Valparaiso, Chile

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The single most irritating and disheartening thing is when people make fun of your accent.

I live in Argentina and speak pretty decent Spanish, can have a conversation about most things and understand almost everything, except groups of people talking to and across each other.

However, my accent is not the best. Fairly strong English and i can't roll my Rs to much effect. Also, i learned Spanish in Ecuador, then Argentina and have a Chilean girlfriend so my accent, pronunciation and intonation are sometimes all over the shop (the Spanish spoken in these 3 countries is very different in each place).

People make fun of my accent, i think without meaning to be rude. But when they do this i ask them to speak English, usually asking them to say the sentence "The woman washes the sheet" which around 8 times out of 10 comes out as "The gwomon gwashes theee shi t." So i laugh at them and make fun of them and they look at me like i've just had carnal relations with their mother. So if you find it offensive don't fcuking do it to me or any other person making the effort to speak your fcking language, pal.

Sorry but it just really gets on my nerves and is something English speakers would never do unless they were really being out of order with someone. If someone is making the effort to speak English in England the vast majority of people would never, ever make fun of their accent and would go out of their way to make that person feel comfortable. Here it's the norm to have a laugh at someone's accent. Ha bleeding ha. In Chile too and also in Ecuador. I had exactly the same issue in France (i used to speak almost fluent French but again with a pretty strong English accent). Also, foreign language speakers (in particular the French i've found) love to mock English native speakers however well they speak the foreign language. I know 2 French people who have lived in England for years, speak fluent English but with strong French accents. Nobody mocks them...

Finally, the "frown of concentration" that so many people put on the second they hear a foreign accent...i know this is not deliberate and has no ill-intent but it really puts me off...

Maybe as TEFLers we notice these things more...?
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JonnytheMann



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Would you like some K�SE? Reply with quote

Henry_Cowell wrote:
Personally, I love bi-lingual conversations ... If you let your ego get in the way, then you're communicating something about yourself that you might not want to be communicating. Wink


You love bilingual conversations. I don't. It has nothing to do with my ego. I think that language is way more than words. It is an identity, a manner of thinking, a manner of seeing the world, a way of life.

If I am trying to do things in a German sense, and someone suddenly starts speaking English to me, it's a real shock to the system to be honest. In fact, I feel like they are excluding me from joining into their world.

Apart from that, it adds stress to your life. I understand all German perfectly. I do not understand all English spoken by Germans!

I remember my friend and I went to an Italian restaurant in Germany, and the waiter said to us, "Wollen Sie .... cheese?" (Would you like ... cheese?) Since he started in German, I was expecting the last word to be German, and I didn't even know what he was talking about. It's crap like that ... when I had even asked him to keep the chick peas out of the tortellini ... I think to myself "So, I know the word for chick peas, but you need to translate cheese for me?" Ugh. Anyway it's just annoying. I commiserate with the OP. Must be even worse for him as I assume that he's not of the Vietnamese race and people know he's foreign even before he opens his mouth.

@ Matt the Boy

Making fun of someone's accent is so rude. I am sad to hear people do that to your face. And the "frown of concentration"! Aaaaah, I know it too well. Sad
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spidey



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 382
Location: Web-slinging over Japan...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been living in Japan now for about 4 years and my conversation ability would be considered middle to upper intermediate.
I can definitely relate to the feelings of most of the posters here but I feel that my opinion may differ from the majority.
When I am speaking in Japanese to a Japanese person and they respond in English, I immediately ask them why they responded as such. (In Japanese of course) The answers that I usually get are; "I thought that it would be easier for you"..."don't you want me to speak in English?"...etc.
Never has anyone told me that my Japanese was unintelligible or just plain strange. It comes as quite a surprise to most people that I want them to respond in their native language. That being said, isn't our responsibility to tell others that we are bothered by the fact that they are responding in a way that we don't appreciate. Should we be bothered at all? Or should we just be a bit more open minded and forthcoming when it comes to expressing our feelings and desires? If it bothers you...say something. Don't just become frustrated and annoyed. Tell them that you want to practice your skills and to speak to you in a natural way. But also let them have the same chance that you are asking for. It's quite possible that they are feeling the same frustrations as you are.

Communiction starts with understanding and understanding begins with communication.

S
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Would you like some K�SE? Reply with quote

JonnytheMann wrote:
You love bilingual conversations. I don't. It has nothing to do with my ego. I think that language is way more than words. It is an identity, a manner of thinking ....

Exactly: your ego. Look it up. Wink

ego: "self; your consciousness of your own identity" (Yep, it can also mean "inflated pride" or "superiority". But that's not what I meant.)

If you must invest strong feelings of "self" in every single communicative act, then you're in for some big surprises in your travels and life in other countries. Take it easy and you won't get so frustrated when people don't react in the way you want them to react to you. This may take years, but who's in a hurry?
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JonnytheMann



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: Would you like some K�SE? Reply with quote

Henry, you're annoying. Very Happy
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just telling you what I've experienced and observed over three decades of using (and teaching) languages around the world. Loosen up and you'll enjoy language more!
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