Job Discussion Forums

[jencoyle]

Hello all. I'm currently working in Bilbao, sunny Spain and looking for an out for next year. Having worked for EF in China before I thought that doing an EF Distance Diploma might be a good way to get more qualified while moving up the greasy pole. If anyone has taken this course before I'd be glad of some general info on how it went, the pros and cons and whether it leaves you enough time to be a senior teacher or DOS at the same time. Also, did anyone one do it while not working with EF? and did anyone who did it in China have any difficulties because of the location?

I've read reams of pages on different Diploma courses and I'm wondering whether there is any real difference??...the material covered seems to be the same.

Any and all advice would be much appreciated. All the best.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Dear Jen:

Since this is a new course by EF, I doubt whether anyone will have had first-hand experience with it, but here's the link for those who may be interested. They are offering 2 variations in terms of moderation & Diploma awarded:

1. internal moderation by EF (EF Diploma in TEFL)

~ or ~

2. external moderation by Trinity College London (LTCL Dip. TESOL)

Here's the link: http://www.ef-tefl-training.com/teacherinfo/training/online/default.asp (EF Online Diploma in TEFL)

~

[Gregor]

Funny you should ask.
Yes, this is a new course offered by EF. Their second class is on the course right now. I was on their first.
Here's the deal as it stood last time I talked to the guy running the course:
You can take the diploma course at so much money. If you pay more, you can sit the Trinity College, London exams. I suggest that you do so.
It is exactly the same course otherwise, which is Trinity. You want to have the accreditation that Trinity has, though. If you have that, it is a postgraduate qualification.
Here are some further links, to prove that it's straight up.
This one is Trinity, London, regarding their diploma:
http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=tesol_diploma.home
Here's the page from the British QCA about what these numbers mean:
http://www.qca.org.uk/493.html
And here's the British QCA's database which talks about this particular qualification:
http://www.openquals.org.uk/openquals/qualificationDetails.aspx?QualificationID=1085

This is becoming an issue because I don't actually have a bachelor's degree and China is cracking down on that. I have printed out these pages and taken them to a government approved translator/notary public, and she has agreed that it does qualify as a higher degree.
The problem was that they don't translate the word "diploma" as a very useful thing. They simply don't understand. She took my papers, researched it herself and called back to tell me that she will alter her translation accordingly.
I don't know if other Asian countries will do the same, but it has certainly made life easier for me here in China, and I don't see this as being a problem down the road.

Jen, to answer your other questions, I was working as a DoS while on the course, here in China (I was in Shenyang at the time). Many EFs here offer a deal (which I took) whereby you sign on as DoS for two years and they pay 11,000 RMB toward the diploma. They dock that out of your pay a little at a time, and if and when you finish the contract, they give it back. That will more than cover the EF Dip I believe, but I'd still suggest you go with the Trinity. Again, same course, but one is accredited and the other is not as far as I know, so far.
The course is awesome. The guy who runs it is the nicest guy you'll ever want to meet, a HELL of an educator, and very tough on his students. Tougher than the Trinity monitor, according to the Trinity guy I had. HE was right impressed with the EF guy.
His name is Huan Japes, and he still runs the thing. Note, though, that if you want the Trinity people to check you out, you have to do the face to face portion in Shanghai (you can do just the EF one in Moscow or Sulewasi, Indonesia).
Also note that you cannot do the entire thing online. There is a face to face portion. It wouldn't be respectable otherwise.
But not only can you do it while you work, you almost have to. It requires a lot of self-observation for various things, and the observation of other similarly qualified teachers.
For me the location wasn't a problem because I was already a director here. And it IS a lot of work. But now it's done and I've got the thing and no one can take that away from me! HA!
We'll see if it does my career any good.

As for other diploma courses, at that level of qualification, don't muck about. Go with either the DELTA (Cambridge) or the LTCL Diploma TESOL ("LTCL" indicates that it's Trinity College, London). Those are the two that have accreditation. I've heard DELTA is more la-dee-dah, but that's just because it's Cambridge. I don't think it's any higher of a qualification. But don't go with just anyone, like a lot of people do with the certificate level. This is for real, so get the accreditation. You're doing the same work, after all. Pay a couple extra pounds!
Good luck.

[Zero Hero]

As the first page you refer to states, the only reason it can be referred to as a "post graduate qualification" is that (stress mine):

"All candidates must have completed a Trinity validated course. In addition they must have a first degree or equivalent [...]"

Obviously, any qualification that is gained after graduating and for which graduation was a prerequisite is a "post graduate qualification".

It is most certainly not a higher degree as you claim, or equivalent to one. It is a diploma; nothing more and nothing less.

[DKatz]

oops

[Stephen Jones]

The same question is alive in another thread. I'll post here what I posted there.

Dear Gregor

Basically you have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the translator and either by luck or influence over the Chinese immigration authorities as well.

Your Trinity Diploma is not the equivalent of a higher degree anywhere. And certainly not in the UK.

You will not be allowed to work in a Grade 1-12 school anywhere a degree is required, which is pretty well the whole planet.

Your Diploma will give you a good chance of getting a teaching job or a DOS job at plenty of language schools, though if a degree is a requirement for a visa you will have problems outside of China where you appear to have bamboozled your way in.

Apart from this your advice is fairly good. The Trinity Diploma is considered the same as the Cambridge/RSA Delta, and unlike most other vocational TEFL courses is widely recognized. There are plenty of other places where you can do the theory part by distance though. Sheffield Hallam for example allow you to credit the Diploma courses taken towards and MA in TEFL, and if you plan to get work in universities then this option may be the best one.

[Gregor]

The whole issue is murky, really.
It seems reasonable enough that teachers should have a university degree. But the thing about teaching ESL is that there are other factors, many of which are not teachable at uni, involved in teaching English abroad, not the least of which is culture shock. Another is relatively crap pay, and one more is living a lifestyle that we didn't grow up watching on TV, therefore it's hard to convince ourselves (and our families and friends) that it is actually a valid way to exist.
Some of the best-suited people for TEFL jobs have no degree. Others have degrees in completely irrelevant things. I have one teacher now who actually has a degree in primary education who is about to lose her job, unless I can find a way to help her do classes at a similar quality level as another guy I have, who has no degree whatsoever and is so successful that not only would his students take a bullet for him, they are also some of the strongest students in our school. Test scores and just chats with them show me that they love his classes, love to study and learn A LOT, and VERY QUICKLY from him.
No degree.
Suddenly the degree requirement seems less reasonable. Especially if somone can show a long and successful history doing what they are being asked to do. What should a government care? I mean, if you can teach or whatever you want to get a work permit to do, and that government can't find someone else from the local population to do it better, why deny the work permit?
So I don't understand all the pissiness about me and my diploma.
Ol' Steve Jones (from the Sex Pistols? Where does THAT guy come off??) reckons I finagled and conned my way into China. Because I don't have a degree. A teaching diploma, which requires field experience and a demonstrated university-educated-level intelligence isn't good enough for Steve (and a lot of other people), because HE did a degree. Evidently, he's better than me (though I DO get the impression that he's British, so there you go).
I actually understand this. Why should I be allowed to do "degree people" things if I didn't go through the hassle of getting a degree? I didn't do what I was told. I didn't go along with the masses, so I should not be allowed to be a part of that now, and that's also actually fair enough, as far as it goes. Can't join the club if you don't pay your dues.
The thing is, being a teacher isn't some sort of reward, and there are different, alternative ways of paying one's dues. Let's consider the students here. If I am a good and responsible teacher, then why does a degree or lack of a degree matter? And the diploma I have (and, I suppose, the USQ in Australia, the DELTA, and any number of others) is a paper that basically says that the holder is a good, experienced and qualified teacher, whether (s)he has a BA degree in chemical engineering or not.
The thing is, though, a lot of people are doing the same thing that some governments are doing - they are deciding that, if you don't have a degree, then you simply cannot qualify for jobs that require a degree.
Again, that seems fundamental, but why should it be? Shouldn't we be talking about a university graduate level of intelligence? Why does a university degree make one a better teacher, or better qualified to teach, than someone with years and years of successful experience and plenty of references to back him up?
I did not mean that as a rhetorical question, either. I would like an answer to that, and I'd be MOST interested in one from Steve Jones. No, I know what you SAID, but I also read the spirit in which you said it. You are clearly in favor of my not being admitted into the club. And if it's your club, that's fine. But if there is actually a valid reason for that other than my being a Jew or something, I'd be interested in hearing what it is.

[Zero Hero]

There is nothing "murky" about this issue at all. In fact, there is no issue.

The Trinity Diploma, like the DELTA, is a fantastic qualification: high standards and close to universally recognised. But it is not a post graduate qualification and is most certainly not a higher degree.

You can rant and ramble with your appeals to 'culture shock' if you like, but 'Jones' is absolutely one hundred percent correct (regardless of his nationality).

[Brooks]

Gregor, is your real name Colin?

[Gregor]

My real name is, actually, Gregor.
Colin happens to be my wife's last boyfriend's name, by strange coincidence.
And the murkiness of the issue is not whether or not a TESOL diploma is a degree. It is not. I know that. I'm not kidding myself on that issue. It has been made abundantly clear to me that it is not a degree.
The murkiness comes from two sources. One is the level of qualification it has in Britain. Even Britons don't seem completely clear on that.
The other is whether or not it can be considered, for the purposes of qualifying for a work permit in this or that country.
On those two points, it is a murky issue indeed. I have managed to pass mine off as a qualification, under the degree requirement, in China, but that's just for me. I didn't get any laws passed saying that this is a degree by Chinese standards or anything of the sort. Someone in a similar position to mine (no degree but with a Dip) will have to jump through the same hoops.
The whole TEFL field is - and has been, as long as I have been in it - going through growing pains. When I entered the field, it was at the very tail end of the "Hippy Backpacker" stage, and those teachers STILL can find employment here and there. I have one on staff at the moment. I didn't hire him, and wouldn't have, but the thing is, I'M GLAD HE'S HERE.
Because traditional qualifications don't amount to much in the field, for the reasons I pointed out in my last post. But then, the experience that one gains from a successful career on TEFL does carry on into life outside, if one chooses to leave TEFL (which most do).
We're in the early stages of this, though. Right now, we're starting to get some recognition from a few odd universities as being in a legitimate profession. They are starting to standardize our qualifications.
Later, maybe, governments will recognize higher TEFL qualifications (higher than the certificate level, that is) as valid. I hope that they recognize them as BETTER than an irrelevant BA. Who could argue against my point that it is inane to require a degree in ANYTHING over a proven track record and higher education in this particular field?
After that, maybe our own governments will start to recognize that extensive classroom experience, proven knowledge of the subject at hand and that same higher training (regardless of whether or not it is a "degree") trumps a bachelor's degree in an irrelevant field.
Hell, at the moment, my native Los Angeles is in dire need of ESL teachers, and that need will remain dire until they see their way clear to A) recognizing TEFL as a seperate field from simply teaching English to native speakers and B) hiring truely qualified professionals in that field.
That day, if it's even coming, is a long way off. And until that day comes, they, and a lot of other American cities, are just damning a lot of their immigrant residents to inadaquate education and perpetuating the cycle of undereducated citizenry with a low comprehension of the language of the land. Every American city-dweller is aware of the results of that, even if they don't understand the cause.

And the very REASON for this is grander-than-thou, man-on-the-street attitudes that say that a degree from Harvard is better than a degree from, say, UC Pomona, which is better than, say, an A.A. degree from Palomar Community College and tons of experience, and so on down the line until you get to a lowly TEFLer with a measly diploma from Trinity College, London and nine or ten years' experience teaching. It's simply elitism, and it makes things progress that much slower.
Maybe slow progress is what you want. That's stereotypical conservatism, and it's understandable. But it's still elitist, and it still perpetuates a lot of DAMAGE, and does NO GOOD.
It's bad enough for Senators or other government officials to have mindless, arbitrary standards. It's far worse for any of us common folks to refuse to defend our field's own qualifications.

Let me put it another way - instead of saying, "It's NOT a degree! It's NOT a degree!" and minimizing the achievements of a diploma-holder, why not say, "Yeah, you're right. Something should be done"?

Jesus, people, I'm not out to steal your job. I am happily and gainfully employed, and, now, fully qualified, as a Director of Studies, with a beautiful wife and beautiful home and on and on. Next year, I even expect to have a Chinese Green Card! I have nothing to gain or lose from your putting down the whole thing. But come ON! I'm assuming that you are all in the TEFL business or are fixin' to be in it, so why don't you step UP, instead of put DOWN?
And I appologize for the Johnnie Cochran-type slogan.

PS - It is SO a postgraduate qualification! It is SO! WAAAAAAA! It amazes me how defensive you people are about this.

[ChrisRose]

Let me jump in here.

The Trinity LTCL Diploma TESOL is a Diploma.

The level of study is at the level as many postgraduate courses, however it is not a postgraduate cert. or Dip.

So if you have a degree not related to language or teaching, you could opt for either a PGCE, PGDE in a field related to ESL/ELT/TESOL etc. or the Trinity Diploma TESOL.

If you don't have a degree, a possible route is, Trinity LTCL Dip. TESOL, then a Post graduate course leading to a Masters.

Note Some countries accept a Dip.Ed. & a Dip.(ELT / TESOL / DELTA) as min. requirements for various educational programs, just with lower starting salaries.

I am considering undertaking the EF Dip.(TESOL) with the additional Trinity examinations this September.

[steven_gerrard]

Sorry to drag up an old (ish) thread but I wanted to get in there before anyone wastes their money.

I too looked into doing the EF Diploma- I just missed out on the Distance Delta deadline and thought this was the answer. Thankfully, I checked with the British Council about which courses are acceptable to them (and their accredited schools) and they informed me that the EF course did not reach the minimum requirements either in number of contact hours or number of observed teaching hours, so therefore is unacceptable. Basically the only courses that do are the Cambridge DELTA and the Trinity Dip.

I know not everyone wants to work for the BC but I would urge caution -anyone considering doing the diploma is obvioulsy fairly committed to teaching and it would be a shame to waste your hard-earned cash if the qualification you end up with makes no difference to your employability.

[EnglishBrian]

For anyone who didn't follow up Gregor's links, here are the National Qualification Framework level descriptors for qualifications. This all came about because there were so many qualifications floating round out there with no way of knowing what level they really refered to. Cambridge and Trinity have recently been trumpeting how the DELTA/LTCL fit into this scheme (level 5), and hopefully over time this will help some TEFLers get a level of recognition for their TEFL qualifications once they go home and try to get real jobs again.

Level 5 qualifications recognise the ability to increase the depth of knowledge and understanding of an area of work or study to enable the formulation of solutions and responses to complex problems and situations. Learning at this level involves the demonstration of high levels of knowledge, a high level of work expertise in job roles and competence in managing and training others. Qualifications at this level are appropriate for people working as higher grade technicians, professionals or managers. Level 5 qualifications are at a level equivalent to intermediate Higher Education qualifications such as Diplomas of Higher Education, Foundation and other degrees that do not typically provide access to postgraduate programmes.
Diploma in Construction; Certificate in Performing Arts

Level 6 Level 6 qualifications recognise a specialist high level knowledge of an area of work or study to enable the use of an individual�s own ideas and research in response to complex problems and situations. Learning at this level involves the achievement of a high level of professional knowledge and is appropriate for people working as knowledge-based professionals or in professional management positions. Level 6 qualifications are at a level equivalent to Bachelors degrees with honours, graduate certificates and graduate diplomas.
Certificate or Diploma in Management

Level 7 Level 7 qualifications recognise highly developed and complex levels of knowledge which enable the development of in-depth and original responses to complicated and unpredictable problems and situations. Learning at this level involves the demonstration of high level specialist professional knowledge and is appropriate for senior professionals and managers. Level 7 qualifications are at a level equivalent to Masters degrees, postgraduate certificates and postgraduate diplomas.
Diploma in Translation; Fellowship in Music Literacy

That pasted, I can say I learnt a lot on my diploma Trinty) and really enjoyed it, though it involved a year's worth of weekends and some long nights. And it got me a good job after.

EnglishBrian BA(Hons)PGDip.IMCELTALTCLTESOL25YardsatHealeyPublicBaths

[teacheringreece]

That position in the framework seems about right. The more academic parts of the diploma course (e.g. phonetics and phonology) are, from my experience, on a par with A-level standard (i.e. university entrance level exams in the UK) rather than degree-level. What I covered in the first year of my linguistics degree was at a far higher level than anything in the diploma. I'm not saying of course that a degree in Linguistics is therefore superior to a diploma, because they serve different purposes. However, where the content overlaps, diploma courses don't come anywhere near degree level.

I think the real problem with diplomas is that they're just not assessed externally in any meaningful way. OK, the Trinity and Cambridge courses are accredited by the British Council, but seeing as the British Council run the Distance DELTA jointly with Cambridge, there's some conflict of interest there. As far other Diplomas, I have never seen any that are checked, accredited, monitored etc. etc. by any kind of indepedent professional organisation. So that's why someone with a TEFL diploma can not expect to impress anyone outside of the EFL world with their qualification (i.e. it's not like an MA), and why the qualification is respected and valued extremely inconsistently within the EFL world.

[Gregor]

If you take the EF Diploma course, you have the option to upgrade it to the Trinity, London Licentiate; you just have to pay the trinity examination fees. If you don't want to pay that, EF will give you their own diploma.
It's essentially...no, it's EXACTLY the same course. The difference being HUGE in result, of course - Trinity Diploma, or diploma that qualifies you to work for EF? A no-brainer. But up until the final exam time, it is the same coursework, online and face-to-face.
EF offers this thing for a few reasons - for one, they had a relationship with Trinity to do certificate courses, and THAT was a recruiting move. Take the EF course, and get a lot of your money back if you stay with EF.
The diploma course was similar - be an EF DoS and get the diploma for a substantial discount (this is why I'm a DoS now). They just decided that Trinity exams are expensive for no good reason - if you work for EF and you want a promotion, you do the EF diploma, and there you go. Higher qualifications. For what it is (and meant to be), it's a good deal. Most, even those who work for EF, will go ahead and pay for the Trinity, though.