Job Discussion Forums

MO39 · Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: How big (a class) is too big?

I have a job offer from a university in Guangdong that seems reasonable and includes the usual perks (free apartment, work visa, and so on). What has me concerned is that the class sizes range from 42 to 63 students in a group, with the "smaller" classes for English majors and the larger ones for non-majors. I am an experienced teacher and have taught both in the US and overseas, mostly in Mexico. However, I've never taught a group larger than 20 students, so these numbers make me uneasy. I don't know how effective a teacher I'd be with so many students to deal with at one time. Comments from experienced teachers in China would be greatly appreciated!

tw · Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 3898

That is very common in China. Because of their budget, public schools (middle schools, colleges, universities) can't afford the Western luxury of 20 students in a classroom. You will always find at least 30 students. At the first school I taught at, there were 50+ students in each class (junior college students) and then 40+ when I was re-assigned to teach the university-level students.

If you teach at a private language school then at most you will have is 20 and could be a few as 2 or 3.

peabocardigan · Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 63

University class sizes of 50 + are very common. Keep in mind that you will most likely be expected to teach oral English. And that's where the problems begin, given that 'academic' support in terms of materials, guidelines and their academic expectations is most likely non-existent.

If you are ready for an experience, go for it. Prepare for a bagload of frustrations as well though if you are going to measure this experience against your previous experiences. Mark my words-this will be very different! Not bad, but different...

P

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Your "effectiveness" is not the prime consideration here; you are being hired as a white face doing "oral English" (see that new thread). If you do English Literature (which I did too, with 60 students per class), then you will have to learn all your teaching ropes anew!

They have different objectives! They only want to "know" English, not to be English speakers. See the difference? Knowledge alone matters here, not skills.

Midlothian Mapleheart · Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 623 Location: Elsewhere

Edited to remove offensive content.

Middy

tw · Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 3898

peabocardigan · Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 63

As Roger says, you should check out the new thread on 'oral English' because that's what most FTs in China get hired for. I am finishing my first year of teaching 'oral English' at university level, mostly to 2nd, 3rd years and non-English majors students. My largest 'oral English' classes had up to 80 students. The advice from the Dean of Foreign Languages was: 'don't worry about the rubbish students, only talk to the good ones' !!! Shocked

My batteries are empty

tw · Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 3898

peabocardigan · Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 63

Sounds very familiar. Just 'get them to speak', 'don't fail anyone' (most pass anyway by way of 're-examination fees') and focus on the 'good ones'!!!

The notion of nurturing talent seems to be an entirely alien concept in my workplace and has probably to do with the law of large numbers. With this many students, universities can focus on those that are already 'good'.

The law of large numbers seems to work on every level here, sports, science, music etc! Harvest the good ones, forget about those that don't show any promise.

This depresses me...

tw · Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 3898

dajiang · Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 663 Location: Guilin!

I think to teach English effectively the class shouldn't be bigger than 20. Anything bigger forces you to change your approach completely, and with this you reset your expectations as well. It's only possible to teach large classes reasonably well if you have a good textbook and workbook (suitable for self-study, and containing lots of extra materials on several levels) These books are hard to come by, and to make your own materials would take too much time (after a few years I've got a fairly good collection, but not enough by far).

I worked at a uni just outside of Beijing for a semester where they'd split up the classes in two, leaving me about 25 students in each class. Apparently the semester before they had some newbies who got so frustrated with their classes that there had been a rebellion and they'd left. For the next semester the school then got a new FAO and me to try again.

I was told as well to 'just get them to speak' and 'focus on the good ones'. I didn't have to worry about passing all of them since I didn't even have to give an exam (early vacation for me Smile

).
Anyway, this obviously went against the basic rule of teaching to teach for the students with the lowest level. To focus on the best ones is simply impossible, and would demotivate the entire class. So, I didn't do what they told me. Instead I tried to find a way to get around this.

I made an 'advanced' class of one of the 3rd grade classes. And made a 'basic' class of the other 3rd grade. The other classes I had remained �ntermediate'. Obviously I didn't tell the students this, because it would make it very hard to degrade a student. (it's a face thing)
Anyway, from time to time I talked to some students privately and talked about if they were happy where they were etc. If perhaps they would be happier if it would be easier, etc. In the end most of the people I'd transferred were happier than they were before. And so was I because it levelled out my classes to some degree.

I was lucky though. My FAO didn't meddle in any of my classes or method. I made my own schedule, chose my own textbook, and in the end even put together my own classes. The FAO only cared about feedback, and as long as this remained positive I could do whatever I wanted. (A good thing of 'just getting them to speak' is that you can interpret this order how you like. You have a good amount of freedom in deciding as to how this should be done.)

Judging from above reading, most of you guys don't have the luxury of having a good FAO (or one that leaves you be). However, if you remain reasonable and calm, and if you can explain to your FAO why certain things are not realistic or could be done better without much effort, then I'm sure you can change the system slightly to your benefit.
I think an important thing is the amount of work that you can do yourself. If you'd want the FAO to take care of things, it a) won't happen the way you like it, and b) happen too late, if at all. Take charge yourself, and make sure you have the solution before addressing the problem.

Curious to read more opinions on this,
Dajiang

tw · Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 3898

MO39 · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:00 am Post subject:

I'm glad that my post has generated this very useful discussion, and I want to thank everyone who has contributed to it. It has helped me come to the realization that I should look for a job in a less challenging teaching environment. Most likely, I'll be returning to Mexico - I won't get a free apartment or return plane fare or have a 16 hour work week, but I will have classes of a size I can manage and students whose first language I speak. After spending quite a lot of time reading the posts on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that anyone who manages to do even an so-so job of teaching English in China is a real TEFL hero or heroine. Good luck to you all!

peabocardigan · Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 63

Good luck, MO39. Glad we could help...

PS: I sometimes think of China FTs as ESL Marines too...