Job Discussion Forums

[Joe Gahona]

"Lift your left leg behind you."

or

"Lift your left leg behind yourself."

The first one sounds better to me, and I don't think "you" becomes "yourself" in a case like this, where the sense of "you" being referred to is more physical. (It's really "Lift your left leg behind your body.") In cases like "Get over yourself" or "Go f--- yourself" or "You should think to yourself," the "you" being referred to is different.

Any insight?

[ls650]

To my ear the first example sounds both wrong and awkward.

[Gregor]

I think that either one would be fine.

After a preposition (behind), you should use a personal pronoun if it's clear that the meaning reflects back to the original subject; that is, it wouldn't make much sense (or would change the meaning) if you were to mean someone else, such as "Life your left leg behind him."

IS that meaning clear? I think it is. So I would say "Lift your left leg behind you." But someone could, I think, argue the point that the second pronoun needs to emphasize the reflexive; that you need to be absolutely sure than no one misunderstands which person you are to lift your leg behind. In that case, "Lift your left leg behind yourself" would be correct. To me it sounds silly, but I'd say it's perfectly arguable. And, of course, either one is perfectly clear, so ultimately they're both fine.

BTW, if the first one (which I just said seemed the more correct to me) sounds wrong, you may be stressing the last "you" too much. It sounds perfectly natural to me, with the correct stress. If you are stressing the final pronoun when you say the phrase, you are basically stressing the "yourself," as opposed to someone else, and then, as I've pointed out, the second one would be correct.

[Chris_Crossley]

It is all a question of usage, I believe. We are so used to saying certain things that they sound perfectly OK and we do not question them until such time as we encounter some situation that makes us do so. For example, learning foreign languages, such as French and German, where the reflexive is quite common, can make us think about our own language.

The French for "I get up" is, of course, "je me leve" (sorry, no accents available on my keyboard!), which literally means "I raise myself", only we do not say "I raise myself" in English in this context because we do not use it. We might find some French student literally translating "je me leve" into English in this way, and, to our ears, it sounds absurd if only because we do not say it like this. Linguistically, however, it does make sense, however paradoxical that may seem.

Hence, "lift your leg behind you" sounds perfectly OK because we would not say "Lift your leg behind yourself" to mean the same thing. If anything, the word "yourself" is used to emphasize the idea that "you" should do this task rather than get someone else to do it, as in "Lift your leg behind [your body] YOURSELF!", in which case the appropriate stress would be used here, too. Plus, of course, there are instances where the words "you" and "yourself" are used together, as in "You yourself said so!" Again, the "yourself" is used in English for emphasis rather than in a reflexive manner in much the same way as "lui-meme" would be used in French for "himself" in a non-reflexive way.

[Nomad Dan]

How about "Try to touch your butt with your left foot" ?
Clearer communication?

Nomad D

[Joe Gahona]

But reflexives aren't used solely to emphasize. "Get over yourself" and "Think to yourself" illustrate this, no? The word "you" would not work in either case.

This might be a case where either is correct -- sort of like "I am taller than she is" and "I am taller than her" -- but I can't figure out why.

[Ahmed_ONLINE]

To my knowledge, Lift your left leg backward" is a better option than both the sentences discussed above.

[Gregor]

Ahmed,
That's not true at ALL. I will allow that colloquial spoken usage in some places would allow for "Lift your leg behind." I'm not familiar with any of those places, mind you. I'm just saying that I can imagine the possibility.
But in FORMAL use?? "Behind" is a preposition. In your suggestion, you leave it dangling without the noun it would require in any formal use of English.
I would say that "Lift your leg backward" could impart a different sense.

[Ahmed_ONLINE]

Do you recommend " Lift your lef leg behind you." as a grammatically and pragmatically correct sentence, Greg?

[Ahmed_ONLINE]

Gregor,
First of all, leaving out the second person pronoun when it can create redundancy is not a complicated grammar rule e.g open the door (we don't say 'You open the door' ). My suggestion was only about leaving out the second person pronoun. In fact, I emphasized the use of (other) pronouns with the preposition 'behind' and that too in colloquial spoken English.

Secondly, it is astonishing to see that a native English speaker could not recognise the sentence,"Lift your leg backward." as a grammatically correct sentence on a formal syntactic pattern!
It calls for an explanation on the part of Chomsky for his saying, " a native speaker can recognise and generate an indefinite number of sentences with a definite number of rules and patterns."

[dmb]

Both sound painful to me

[Ahmed_ONLINE]

dmb,
Grammar is a 'pain in the neck', I believe, only for the students at some early stages of their study. It also causes 'Indigestion' but, in my view, teachers of English should have a 'Stomach' bigger enough to digest at least such a small sandwich.
Anway, I hope, these vapid and sipidless lines would work wonders as a 'Pain-killer' for you, dmb. (though they may also prove to be only a Killer in your case)
Now stop peeping out of the window, and call the doctor .....

In the end, here is a sentence for Gregor:
" Keep the present in front, and put the past behind."
What punitive measures should we take against the creator of this sentence!

[dmb]

ahmed, i love grammar and find it fascinating. I was actually talking about the (physical)pain of putting my left leg behind me/myself

Hmmm We have TPR, do you think there is a market in combining English teaching and Yoga?

sorry to all ,but i am on one of my weird train of thoughts.
has anyone used a book about kamasutra in the classroom?
again sorry

[Ahmed_ONLINE]

Taking such a book (the book you've mentioned) into the classroom may result in either of these two situations:
1. The Teacher,in rags, thrown out of the classroom through the window
2. The Teacher hanging upside down with the only fan in the classroom to save his 'very honour'

So, dear dmb, get off this destructive train of thoughts before it bangs into the ELT bullet train coming on the same track. In fact, this track is for the ELT train of thoughts only.

I'm afraid you are all set to get a BAN on the application of the TPR theory in the classroom.

[dmb]

taxi for dmb, phew. thanks ahmed