| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ben Round de Bloc
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: What's wrong with this? |
 |
|
| seanaway wrote: |
You've just completed a gruelling number of sessions on teaching Present Perfect Simple and Present Perfect Continuous.
A student comes to you with two sentences they have written.
1. I have been a teacher for 20 years
2. I have been teaching for 20 years
The student then asks: 'Which one is correct?'
You reply: 'They both are.' |
This is how I would start the explanation of why both can be correct.
One of the problems here for the student could be that he is trying to figure out when to use Present Perfect Simple vs. Present Perfect Continuous, but in his two sentences he's using two different main verbs: be and teach.
I would show him these sentences:
Verb: Teach
1. I have taught for 20 years. (Present Perfect Simple)
2. I have been teaching for 20 years. (Present Perfect Continuous)
Verb: Be
1. I have been a teacher for 20 years. (Present Perfect Simple)
2. I have been being a teacher for 20 years. (Present Perfect Continuous)
Since we normally don't use state of being verbs in continuous form, the last example is incorrect/non-standard.
Where I would go from here would depend on the student's understanding at this point and his following questions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
seanaway
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Again, I'm in agreement. However, does this leave the student with a clear picture of when to use one/other/or both? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dyak
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 630
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| seanaway wrote: |
| However, does this leave the student with a clear picture of when to use one/other/or both? |
The student should use the present perfect whenever he finds himself saying, 'I am teacher for 20 years', and reserve the present perfect continuous for tedious gapfills in heavily contrived course books. 
It's more or less avoided by native speakers and students, except in question form:
What have you been doing?
Watching a film.
What have you been eating?
Fish.
Have you been studying the present perfect continous?
No. Leave me alone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seanaway
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How true of gapfills!
But, what about ' I've been thinking about this, and....'
Come on guys! We're going in circles.
I never asked 'What's the correct answer?' I asked ' What's wrong with this?' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What about this one:
"I've been making molehills out of anthills." *yawn* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ben Round de Bloc
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: What's wrong with this? |
|
|
| seanaway wrote: |
You've just completed a gruelling number of sessions on teaching Present Perfect Simple and Present Perfect Continuous.
A student comes to you with two sentences they have written.
1. I have been a teacher for 20 years
2. I have been teaching for 20 years
The student then asks: 'Which one is correct?'
You reply: 'They both are.' |
Okay, so what's wrong with this?
First, I'd say if the teacher has just completed a gruelling number of sessions on teaching Present Perfect Simple and Present Perfect Continuous, and then a student comes up with these two examples and asks which is correct, something was missing from the gruelling number of sessions. I'd suggest that the teacher re-evaluate his/her presentation to include: 1) more practice on how to form the structures, so that students don't try to compare Present Perfect Simple and Present Perfect Continuous using two different verbs, and 2) more emphasis on when these structures are used.
Second, I'd say that the teacher's reply ("They both are.") was incomplete. If the student had said, "These can both be right, can't they?" it would've indicated that the student probably had a decent understanding of the concept and was simply looking for confirmation. However, to leave a student hanging with the answer that both are correct and dropping it there doesn't seem like very productive teaching to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dyak
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 630
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| seanaway wrote: |
| But, what about ' I've been thinking about this, and....' |
Students and tefl teachers will substitute it with the past continous. Is the present perfect continous really worth the hassle? Probably not. Drag it out for gapfills and mindless tests only. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seanaway
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
All valid opinions and replies. The problem is, we can't just leave it hanging there as students will encounter it and this is a MAJOR headache for students. As is Past Simple Vs Present Perfect Simple.
I don't know about anthills but my students over the years have been climbing Everest on this one. Until I realised.....(I'm a real pain in the A**, aren't I?  )
One last hint:
Have a look at what the student says in the first posting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Celeste
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 814
Location: Fukuoka City, Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: What's wrong with this? |
|
|
| seanaway wrote: |
A student comes to you with two sentences they have written.
1. I have been a teacher for 20 years
2. I have been teaching for 20 years
The student then asks: 'Which one is correct?'
|
"Neither. You are a student, not a teacher."  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ben Round de Bloc
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| seanaway wrote: |
All valid opinions and replies. The problem is, we can't just leave it hanging there as students will encounter it and this is a MAJOR headache for students. As is Past Simple Vs Present Perfect Simple.
I don't know about anthills but my students over the years have been climbing Everest on this one. Until I realised.....(I'm a real pain in the A**, aren't I? )
One last hint:
Have a look at what the student says in the first posting. |
You remind me of some of those teacher trainers who give partial or vague information, then lead their trainees through the process by giving them fake positive reinforcement. In the end, the trainees are supposed to oh-and-ah in wonder at how smart their trainer is. However, most trainees think all along that those trainers are what you've come to realize about yourself in your post above. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Will.
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 783
Location: London Uk
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Where'. Shun when you need him |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seanaway
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tut Tut. Is there nowhere people can go to have a friendly discussion anymore? 
Ben, why so hostile?
My posting is there to open a discussion about how best to help students deal with the complexities of English tenses. Not to generate professional insult towards other members of the community. If I have reflected something of your own training experience and upset you, my apologies.
Nice answer Celeste
Anyway, before this whole thread descends into the mire, I'll tell you .
The student is asking the wrong question. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: If that's the wrong question, what's the "right" q |
|
|
| seanaway wrote: |
| The student is asking the wrong question. |
It would be of help to us if you were to tell us what you believe ought to have been the "right" question. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seanaway
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jeez CC you really want an easy life! 
The question should have been 'Which one is more appropriate?'
Why? (And this is just an opinion, of course) Students have been so brainwashed by the correct/incorrect pattern of grammar books, they have never had the chance to think about the message they want to transmit. What do they do? They think of the sentence in, let's say Spanish, then ask how they would say this in English. So the process goes, Past action in Spanish, must be Past in English. When do I need a past tense? Let's see what the grammar says...
If the student were to think about the message e.g. Do I want to talk about a fact/ Yes. Well then I'll need a Simple. Do I want to talk about a specific time in the past? No. Do I want to talk about something that happened between now and a specific time in the past? Yes. Well then I need a Present Perfect Simple. And so on..
I do this with intermediate students and above and find the rate of errors dropping dramatically within a very short period of time.
It takes time for students to let go of the crutch of rules for tense use but it's always well worth it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Students have been so brainwashed by the correct/incorrect pattern of grammar books, they have never had the chance to think about the message they want to transmit. |
That's actually a very good point. Students seldom seem to realise that there are often a number of "right" ways to express something and also that sometimes there are subtle differences in nuance and connotation involved.
For example: "How are you?" automatic response: "I'm fine, thank you. And you?"
Also, they frequently seem to think that if they have already learned the "right" thing to say in a given situation they don't need to change it even when you tell them it is wrong.
For example: "How are you?" automatic response: "Yes."
Good job trying to get us to think about this stuff, but next time don't forget the full stops. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
