Job Discussion Forums

[Babala]

My two cents..

I think I have only agreed with something Tofuman has said once (and it wasn't on this thread). Some of his views I even find repugnant. This being said however I also have a strong distaste for the high-handed morality police of Alex_P too. The forum has moderators already, let them do their job. If you have a problem, complain to the moderators. Don't cast yourself in the role of judge and jury.

[Midlothian Mapleheart]

Edited to remove offensive content.

Middy

[danielb]

AP, was that post directed at me? I'm Australian, so most of it fell on deaf ears. You were the one threatening court action (against forum members) and as a person with an interest in the law I was interested in exactly what offence/s Tofuman and Cujo had committed. If you can�t nominate an actual offence it doesn�t matter. It�s just a matter of credibility. In my opinion you simply don�t have any.

[Alex_P]

I believe that my point was that although this site is hosted in the United States, it is available in the People's Republic of China and according to prevailing Chinese thought and thinking sites that are offensive to the dignity of the Chinese people (and I not saying that this forum has yet reached that level), sites that impart racial discord (and this forum may have reached that level), sites that are demeaning to, or critical of the Chinese people in a manner in excess of the tolerated norms in the People's Republic (and here I am also not sure) may be filtered out for viewing.

I am aware of several. You may be Australian, but this is China, and Chinese laws and standards do apply here, without exception (and no, I don't make them and no I don't enforce them, but I am quite aware of what they are, as should be any foreigner who lives here). This is not Crocodile Dundee territory but anymeans.

[Alex_P]

Babala,

I would politely suggest that the ultimate moderator of this forum is the mores, customs and practices of the People's Republic, together with those rules and guidelines set forth by the Internet Commission of the People's Republic. Morality or non-morality, this is China and things are tolerated in Hyde Park London or Washington Square New York or whever else in the "native-English speakers' countries" may not and in some cases are not accepted here.

So I am not the morality people. I am a "considerate of the dictates, customs, norms, mores, rules, regulations and codes" of the People's Republic person.

I am a guest in their country. I am appalled that many others here feel it is their God-giving right to be here. The "mission civilisatrice" approach died one-year's ago and is did all of the "white man's burden thinking". But it sure appears to lurk around here.

[Alex_P]

Thank you very much for your comments. You have very eloquently set forth some good points.

[danielb]

AP said

[Alex_P]

You simply don't get it.

The issue is already moot because many of Tofuman's comments have been edited out, or sanitized, if you will.

Since you are from an English-speaking countries, you may wish to consider Justice Holme's well-cited comments on the limits of free speech and the responsibility therein.

I do not know if you are in China now or if you are in Australia. In China, laws are made by the People's Congress in Beijing with the ascent of the government. But it is left to the entire discretion of the various Public Security Bureaus to define their meaning taking into accounts customs, mores, etc., etc. The system does not work the same as it does in Queenland.

And frankly, my wife is a senior partner in one of New York City's largest firms. I ran several of tofuman's postings by hear for an opinion of counsel and she felt that they were decidedly libellous, etc., etc. injurious, etc., etc.

Free speech is not the ability to hurl epithets ad infinitum and at will. It is not the ability to blech forth racial discourses after inbibing three or four bottles of Foster's Lager. Oliver Wendell Holmes, the late Chief Justice of the United States, was often quoted as saying that freedom of speech and writing stops at the other person's nose, so to speak.

So applying your conception of Anglo-Saxon law and practice to China simply does not work. If at the discretion of the Public Security Bureau, they have rendered a finding that an infraction of something exists, that is sufficient.

My sole person is to keep all discourse on this board within the norms and mores of the People's Republic.

I refer you to Roger's very astute post wherin he speaks about a Canadian that came to China to incite the students to riot. We are their guests and they are hosts.

And as the case of the teacher outside of Hangzhou, if the PSB believe that her postings and rantings and ravings caused offense, so are they empowered to act.

Again, when in Rome, do as the Romes. And leave Ayer's Rock in Queensland, or wherever it is.

[tofuman]

"And frankly, my wife is a senior partner in one of New York City's largest firms. I ran several of tofuman's postings by hear for an opinion of counsel and she felt that they were decidedly libellous, etc., etc. injurious, etc., etc."

Libel connotes an element of falsehood. No post of mine contains falsehood. I could easily prove almost any claim I have made here regarding events relevant to my employment. The provincial FAO intervened on my behalf. Since he is on site, I'm not too concerned about the speculations of a New York "lawyer."

Last time I checked, my posts, but one, had not been mod-edited.

I edited some of my own posts because, upon reflection, I felt that they were mean spirited, and certain situations were open to interpretation. Most of the "sanitizing" that goes on pertains to matters of punctuation and wriiting style, not content.

It is informative to consider that after AlexP appeared here and started his campaign of intimidation, a moderator posted a sticky on internet trolls and how to deal with them. It's good reading.

The "guest" motif disturbs me. I was kept here contrary to my own desires. I wanted to leave, but my employers insisted that I stay to complete my contract. I wanted to leave between the school terms and would have caused little difficulty by so doing. But the school has rarely considered my feelings or desires because their own interests rule.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Others may have no problem spitting goobers on the floor of a restaurant, clearing their nose on the sidewalk, poisoning themselves with tobacco, doctoring grades, allowing students to cheat, spying on others, defrauding them, and so forth. I'll pass on those things.

Rome was once considered the most civilized and sophisticated place in the world. When China becomes to the modern world world what Rome was to the ancient, the saying might have relevance. Presently, it is just another shortsighted apologetic with which a sycophant may fortify himself.

[cujobytes]

what a pompous, sanctimonious ass. (Not you Tofu)
.

[danielb]

AP

I was giving you an example of an actual offence - and inviting you to do the same. The big rock thingy is actually in The Northern Territory but that is not the point either. I had no problem leaving it where it is, as you directed, but then you brought New York into the equation. Why? Sorry I am not from large New York firm but a small Tasmanian one. I'm not sure that the size and locale of the firm makes a difference in acts interpretation, does it? So what you argue is that the Chinese can make up an offence to suit their purposes. Is that the case really? Don't they at least have to start with an offence? What is it? A quick lesson (Dave's ESL Cafe Law for Dummies 101) for you. What you need to do to regain any credibility (assuming you ever had any) is to nominate the offence and then break it down into elements. Then, show how the actions of Tofuman and/or Cujo fulfilled each and every one of those elements. That is how you prove an offence. It is also something you should do for yourself before you allege an offence. You could perhaps gain the assistance of the 'New York lawyer' in doing so.

[Alex_P]

[Alex_P]

[danielb]

I will address your points.

1. I think I was being generous when I assumed you had any credibility. Credibility, at leat in this instance, is subjective and I, along with you and everyone else, can judge it and comment on it as we please.

2. What is Anglo-Saxon thinking? What is New York thinking? I am in China.

3. Is Tasmania a backwater? Is calling it a backwater insulting? Might be but it is not an offence. I'm sure my legal interpretations are correct. I also believe that China has a court system that is based on people being brought before it for ACTUAL OFFENCES. There may well be wide interpretations but that is a moot point.

You are still not addressing the issues I raised. I think you should apologize to Tofuman and Cujo for your vicious allegations and threats against them.

Cheers

PS I promise not to dob on you for calling Tasmania a backwater.

[tw]

Gentlemen,

Could we just put this behind us and move on please? This started as one person coming to my defence over what he considered to be racist and discriminatory remarks made by another individual. But now this has dragged on so far off-topic it has just turned into 3 guys attacking one. For the record, I am not yellow-skinned (rather pinkish now actually ) but it's no biggie because I am used to it. Bruce Springsteen (one of my favourite musicians) said