Job Discussion Forums

[Volodiya]

One of the things that often happens in any community (and our community of people working and interested in working in China is such a community) is that certain information is passed around until it just becomes accepted as "gospel". For example, many posters, when given the chance, will assert that it is illegal to work as a foreign teacher, for remuneration, after having entered the country on an "F" visa. However, I've been unable to find Chinese Law to that effect, and the posters in question have offered none, though given the chance. See-
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26417

When all is said and done with this thread, it may have been established that it is not possible to work, lawfully, after entering on an F visa, as they maintain. But, I take the position on this, and all questions reqarding the Chinese Law and administrative practice, that we should examine the law, and the application of the law as it actually occurs, as the best evidence upon which to rely.

Those who have read my posts will understand that I'm in a continual search for further information on these subjects. I take no "hard and fast" position: I'm open to a change of opinion on any of these subjects; and, I believe we owe our readers more than bald faced assertions, and more than the mere repetition of information provided by others, without investigating further the basis for those assertions, and that information.

I consider the question open, until something authoritative is produced to the effect that a school may not employ a foreign teacher, and have him enter, for the purpose of accepting employment, on an F visa, under the following, narrow conditions:

1) the school is licensed to employ foreign teachers;
2) the prospective foreign teacher meets the minimum standards for a foreign expert, as set forth in the SAFEA Guidelines; and,
3) the offer of employment is for less than six months.
______________________

In investigating this question, we have the guidelines promulgated by the State Administration for Foreign Expert Affairs (SAFEA). In pertinent parts that appear in the English translation, 2003- the latest that I've been able to locate; and, though I've invited the posters to this forum to find and produce for us a later edition of these guidelines, in English, none has done so- it reads, as follows:

**************
[Under the section entitled, "Foreign Experts", it reads-]

The State Bureau of Foreign Experts Affairs of China is the official organ under the central government and is in charge of the foreign experts working in China. Those foreign affairs offices and local bureaus of foreign experts in provinces, areas and cities are local governmental offices or units in charge of foreign experts working in the local places.

**************
[Under the section entitled, "II. Entry, Residence, Travel and Exit of Foreign Experts", it reads-]

Visa F is issued to those who come to China to visit, teach, do business, or for cultural, scientific or technological exchanges for less than six months.

**************
[As commentary, in the guidelines, it reads-]

According to the above regulations, foreign experts who come to China for long-term service should apply for Visa Z on their entry. Those who are invited to visit, teach or participate in the exchange of science, technology and culture and stay in China for a short term should apply for Visa F on entry.

***************
[Under the section entitled, "How to apply for Visa Z, visa for those who work in China", it reads-]

According to the regulations, foreign experts, who are to work in China for more than 6 months, should apply for Visa Z to China 's departments of foreign affairs or overseas organizations entrusted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They should present their invitation letters, valid passports and certificates, and Foreign Experts Affairs Invitation Confirmation. [emphasis added, ed.]

***************
[Under the section entitled, "How to apply for Foreign Residence Permits?", it reads-]

Foreign experts holding Visa F should also apply for contemporary residence when they need to stay in China longer. [emphasis added, ed.]
__________________________

The English version of these guidelines could be out of date. There may have been revisions and amendments to these since 2003, when they were published.

Unfortunately, as I've said, no one has offered a more up to date edition of these on the forums, and I haven't been able to find one, myself.

For the full text of the English Language version from which I quoted, see-
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=14351&highlight=
__________________________

It may be that if there have been changes, these will appear in the Chinese Language edition, which may be available on the website. I do not read Chinese, so this is where I'm asking posters to make a contribution to this investigation (they may have other, valuable contributions to make as well: it is this one that I'm concerned about).

Please have a look at the quoted portions of the guidelines, but in the Chinese edition (if one appears on the website), and let us know what it says. Also, look at the guidelines as a whole to see if there have been amendments which will affect our understanding of the official, Chinese government position on this question.

Thanks to all who may help. www.safea.gov.cn

[Zero Hero]

[tw]

Just exactly WHERE on SAFEA's web site did you find these guidelines??? Give us the exact URL please.

[smalldog]

Chinese law is often vague and contradictory, and is interpreted by those in authority in the wider context of what they consider reasonable and in the interests of society and themselves. The western concept of black-and-white legality doesn't exist here, so I don't believe there's any point debating this question with a western mindset. Discussing the Chinese constitution with students is a good way to gain an understanding of the status of law in China.

I have personally seen F visa invitation letters issued by the Beijing FAO with "short-term teaching" as the purpose of visit, so I don't doubt that teaching on an F visa is to some extent "legal".

[Volodiya]

I appreciate the responses.

Zero Hero, if you mean there are English Language editions of the SAFEA Guidelines that you have seen, and these are current editions (not reprints of the 2003 edition I quoted from here), it would be useful to us- if you, or somebody else, could post these here.

TW, the website www.safea.gov.cn is the official, government website of the State Administration for Foreign Expert Affairs. It's in Chinese, so I don't know if it contains an up to date version of the SAFEA guidelines. That's why I wrote in regard to it, "Please have a look at the quoted portions of the guidelines, but in the Chinese edition (if one appears on the website), and let us know what it says."

The English Language version of the SAFEA guidelines that timkelley found, and I quoted from, can be seen in their entirety at several websites. One of them is www.china-tesol.com

[Roger]

I think reopening this old can only reinforces the ideathat you don't really have to get a work visa, and in fact a hell of a lot of people don't have the right visa.

I am also pretty sure that since so little is known for facts the PSB officials aren't too sure either, and might thus be tempted to take arbitrary decisions.

Anyway, my caveat is thiks: if you do believe you are legal so long as you sign a contract limiting your sojourn in China to 6 months then it follows that the legislator didn't want you to renew your 6 month contract upon expiry unless you get a regular work visa!

[tw]

Well, I can tell people that I spent a lot of time going through that painfully SLOW web site and didn't find any links to SAFEA guidelines.

[Volodiya]

TW, that was extremely kind of you to take the time to look over the official, Chinese Language site. It was something I couldn't do.

Roger, in my searches of old posts to this forum, I never found a serious effort to answer the question I posed- one that was grounded in Chinese Law and the experience of our posters, as the best evidence of the application and administration of that law.

Roger wrote:

[Volodiya]

[Volodiya]

Since no one has come forward with further details of the laws of China on this point, I'll add the following:

On another thread, tw provided an excerpt from the materials published in Chinese on the SAFEA website, a portion of which reads, in translation, as follows:

[mike w]

One thing that we all must remember, is that the law in China is interpreted in many different ways. There are as many variations as there are provinces, municipalities and cities. What may be legal and valid in one province or city may be invalid in another.

A friend of mine recently tried to change his Beijing 'F' visa (which through no fault of his own had expired) into a 'Z' visa. He visited the PSB in Beijing - a section specifically set up to deal with foreigners visas. He was instructed to go to Hong Kong with a specific set of documents, which he duly did. On arrival in Hong Kong, he was refused a 'Z' visa, because one document the Hong Kong officials required was no longer issued by the Beijing PSB as it was now deemed unnecessary by the Beijing Municipal Government. The officials in Hong Kong said that they had their rules, and would not be told by a Municipal government that they had to change them. The Hong Kong officials even refused to contact the PSB in Beijing to check the story out.

Although the Chinese Central Government say it is illegal to work for pay on a 'F' visa, in many cities and provinces it is deemed legal.

The moral : when you decide where you are going to work, check with the local government as to what documentation is required, and what visa status is required for you to work legally.

[Volodiya]

Mike W wrote:

[mike w]

[Chris_Crossley]

This sounds very much like a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

As a result, two separate sources, who are supposed to be acting on behalf of the PRC government, give conflicting information, and we are the poor souls who are caught in the middle.

I would suggest checking with both sources before having to make such long, time-consuming journeys to their offices. If Beijing says you need something, check with HK if that "something" is OK. If Beijing says you do not need something, check with HK if that is the case.

The best thing would be to communicate by telephone with both sources, as this is, as likely as not, generate the quickest responses.

Then again, I bet that someone already has checked by telephone with both sources, only to find that, once again, misinformation has been communicated by at least one source. Sometimes, you just have no choice but to learn by bitter experience just how utterly inefficient so-called government organisations are.

[clark.w.griswald]

Volodiya, I support your attempts at making clear what is currently a very murky issue, but I am not sure that I agree with the logic behind what you are saying.

It seems to me that you are suggesting that an 'F' visa must be legal as no-one has been able to produce any evidence to the contrary. I don't know that I agree that this is a very good way of substantiating an argument, especially one that could end up with people in hot water.

I agree that the discussion should be based upon facts rather than feelings and the fact that few have ventured their opinions on this matter seems to suggest that everyone respects the importance of sorting this issue out - one way or the other.

Personally, it seems pretty clear to me that the intention of the 'F' visa as it pertains to teaching is aimed at visiting professors and the like who are here in China short term. Most foreign teachers, even if their contracts are only for six months, would be considered long term teachers as they have relatively full workloads and fixed classes. It seems to me that these facts place them in a category whereby a 'Z' visa becomes essential to ensure that one is legal.

My opinion on this matter comes largely from a discussion with members of SAFEA, and I would encourage you to contact the webmaster at the china-tesol.com website as he is 'in the know' on these matters and I believe that he has some pretty strong views about the validity of 'F' visas for foreign teachers in a purely legal sense.