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audchiang
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: When is a contract a contract? |
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I know there are cultural differences in interpretations of contracts, but in the US, a contract is understood to be legally binding, especially when there are live signatures involved.
I signed a "contract" which was more like a letter outlining expectations of me as a teacher and of the school as employer back in April or so. It was in English, and the principal/owner of the school signed it. A few weeks ago, I get an email saying that my "contract" is not being honored, and I no longer have a job. I talked with the vice-principal on the phone, and she tells me that they are now only looking for credentialed teachers (I am not) and I definately do not have a job and that the letter I signed was not binding.
Anyhow, my question is, in searching for positions in China from the US, when can you be sure that you in fact have a job? I've gotten an email from another school saying they are interested in having me work there, they've answered some questions I have, they've sent me a sample contract, and have told me they will send me an offer letter. All this in English. Is this all just a leap of faith, do we just have to trust that an emailed contract in English really means a job is there when we arrive?
I know that the main thing a school can do to show you that they are investing in you is to obtain a work visa while you are still in the US - this school is asking that I come on a tourist visa and they will get the work visa when I arrive. I know this is not ideal, but I also know this is done more times than not.
Back to my original question - when is a contract a real promise of a job? |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: When is a contract a contract? |
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| audchiang wrote: |
| I signed a "contract" which was more like a letter outlining expectations of me as a teacher and of the school as employer back in April or so. It was in English, and the principal/owner of the school signed it. A few weeks ago, I get an email saying that my "contract" is not being honored, and I no longer have a job. I talked with the vice-principal on the phone, and she tells me that they are now only looking for credentialed teachers (I am not) and I definately do not have a job and that the letter I signed was not binding. |
About the same thing happened to me a month ago. I signed an official contract (the SAFEA contract) courierd to me along with the contract appendix. I sent those back along with my medical report, FEC application and photos. A week later the school told me that my application for FEC (work permit) was rejected because I don't have a bachelor's degree. So as you can see, contracts mean jack in China and they are written for the benefit of the employer and not for you. Even worse is the fact that it was signed OUTSIDE of China. The university did nothing more than a "sorry" and "good luck". Also, I doubt what you signed was a "contract". It was probably an acknowledgement that you accept the terms and conditions set out by the employer, and to show a commitment to teaching at the school. They needed it to show the authorities that you have promised to teach at that school.
| Quote: |
| Anyhow, my question is, in searching for positions in China from the US, when can you be sure that you in fact have a job? |
When you have the Foreign Experts Invitation Confirmation (yellow piece of paper) and the Visa Notice mailed to you so you can apply for your Z visa. THAT is when you know you have a job.
| Quote: |
I've gotten an email from another school saying they are interested in having me work there, they've answered some questions I have, they've sent me a sample contract, and have told me they will send me an offer letter. All this in English. Is this all just a leap of faith, do we just have to trust that an emailed contract in English really means a job is there when we arrive?
I know that the main thing a school can do to show you that they are investing in you is to obtain a work visa while you are still in the US - this school is asking that I come on a tourist visa and they will get the work visa when I arrive. I know this is not ideal, but I also know this is done more times than not. |
In my opinion and in many other people's opinion, a letter of invitation by e-mail is not enough unless you are planning on going there with a L visa first which most people would strongly discourge anyone from doing. Work permit, work permit, work permit.
You may also want to check the thread on converting L visa to Z visa -- not all provinces allow you to do it in China. You may have to go to HK or Korea.
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| Back to my original question - when is a contract a real promise of a job? |
After you have arrived in China and you have your work permit and residence permit. THEN sign the contract.
Last edited by tw on Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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recalcitrant
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: permissions |
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tw, have you ever worked in China before? I don't have a bachelor's either, TESOL cert. only. I am most interested in China, though.
Should I give up on finding a job in China from Canada because I don't have a university degree? |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: Re: permissions |
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| recalcitrant wrote: |
tw, have you ever worked in China before? I don't have a bachelor's either, TESOL cert. only. I am most interested in China, though.
Should I give up on finding a job in China from Canada because I don't have a university degree? |
I taught for 2 years in China.
Are you white? If you are, then you will get a job in China, guaranteed. Granted, it may not be in a college or university and may not be in some major municipality, but there are plenty of private language schools that would gladly hire you. You MAY get a teaching job in a college/university but it will have to be somewhere that most foreigners wouldn't consider. |
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recalcitrant
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I am white. I have blue eyes. I am 6'7" so I'll stick out like a sore thumb, I'm sure.
But, the law...
It does seem like a lot of private schools would be glad to "get" me, but without having a university degree, will they be able to "get" me?
I don't want to live in a big city like shanghai, anyway. Not because it's so populous but because of the cost of living. I hope to learn Mandarin, so I would like to live somewhere that speaks Mandarin over Cantonese. Is that even an issue?
I think I've started to jack this thread. feel free to reply in a PM. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| recalcitrant wrote: |
| I am white. I have blue eyes. I am 6'7" so I'll stick out like a sore thumb, I'm sure. |
Nah, there are plenty of other foreigners in China who are white and have blue eyes. Go to Xinjiang and people may even think that you are one of them! 
Oh law schmlaw! Yes, most job ads say you MUST have a degree. At the same time, I have seen quite a few job ads that say degree OR TEFL certificate. Hell, I have even seen one recruiter's web site showing people with nothing more than having a highschool diploma hired for teaching jobs in China. Of course, the regulations tightened as of this year. Still, I had this argument with a poster recently. He accused me of wanting to work in China "illegally" because I am "unqualified". Hey, as long as the government of the People's Republic of China gives me a valid work permit (Foreign Experts Certificate), then as far as *I* am concerned I am teaching legally. People like Roger would dispute such claims that only native speakers and people with degree should be allowed to teach English in China. There are people in Asia with fake degrees teaching. It's well-known among expats in China. To this day, nobody, I repeat, NOBODY has been able to provide concrete proof (i.e. Chinese government web site, quotes from government publication, etc) that a degree is required by LAW. It's to the discretion of individual employers and (most importantly), how willing the province office of SAFEA is willing to authorize the employer to hire you and granting you the all-important Foreign Experts Certificate.
| Quote: |
| It does seem like a lot of private schools would be glad to "get" me, but without having a university degree, will they be able to "get" me? |
Well, it will be probably MUCH easier for the employer to try to convince the authorities to issue you the work permit if you were to be teaching in a university in Lishi, Henan, than it would be for you in a middle school in Qingdao.
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| I hope to learn Mandarin, so I would like to live somewhere that speaks Mandarin over Cantonese. Is that even an issue? |
Well, unless you are going to Guangdong province (especially Guangzhou city), you won't be hearing any Cantonese except Cantonese songs on radio/CD so it's a non-issue. Mind you, you WILL hear local dialects but unless you'll be in southern and southeastern Chinese provinces, many Chinese dialects sound a lot like Mandarin. From what I've been told, Heilongjiang has the most neutral Mandarin dialect in China.
For what it's worth, post a few job-wanted ads on a few TEFL web sites and I'd be damned if you don't get anyone inviting you to work for them.
Last edited by tw on Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:24 am Post subject: |
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tw,
I tell you it is not wise or friendly for you to attribute opinions to me that I have never offered here: you said "...people like Roger would dispute that..." if the authorities granted the OP a work permit that these job holders are in a legal position. I would never dispute their legal status!
The point is that the OP is underuqalified and inexperienced, and there may be a glut of job seekers in his situation.
Schools act much the way many jobseekers act - they enter into a semi-formal agrement and bail out when they find a better partner. I don't see anything immoral in Chinese employers not hosting FTs with whom they only signed a sort of agreement on intent.
You get a job not because you are white and a native English speaker - that's not a particularly good recommendation! - but you get a job because they have a vacancy for which there is no suitable candidate from their own human resources.
It would stand the OP in good stead if he first enhanced his educational level and got some professional insight in his future job as a techer. |
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audchiang
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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OK, granted I am not a certified teacher, but I am committed to going to China for personal reasons. Up until last week, I did have a job lined up which would allow my two kids to attend the same school I would be teaching at, but this situation tanked at the last minute.
I have tickets to arrive in China on August 6th - yes, a mere month away.
At this late date, what can I ask of potential employers that will ensure me that I have a job when I arrive? Or is there nothing that will guarantee me a position at this point? |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| audchiang wrote: |
| At this late date, what can I ask of potential employers that will ensure me that I have a job when I arrive? Or is there nothing that will guarantee me a position at this point? |
As I said before,
| Quote: |
| When you have the Foreign Experts Invitation Confirmation (yellow piece of paper) and the Visa Notice mailed to you so you can apply for your Z visa. THAT is when you know you have a job. |
Ask them to send those to you, and then you know for sure you have a job.
FWIW there is still plenty of time in getting a teaching job in China for the coming term. Many schools will be scrambling for FT's when school staff return to work (often a week or two before classes begin). |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:55 am Post subject: Foreigners or locals for the vacancy? |
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| Roger wrote: |
| You get a job not because you are white and a native English speaker - that's not a particularly good recommendation! - but you get a job because they have a vacancy for which there is no suitable candidate from their own human resources. |
Whilst there are undoubtedly plenty of non-whites and non-native speakers (NNSs) teaching English in China (and I have known and/or worked with both kinds of people), it almost sounds as if employers in China are approaching the authorities and saying, "We cannot find any local Chinese person to teach English at our school, so we 'must' hire a foreigner!"
This is the argument that Canadian employers use when approaching Human Resources Development Canada (HRDC) to argue their case as to why they should hire an immigrant (or would-be immigrant) because there is no local (Canadian) person to do the job because of the requirements, including pre-requisite qualifications and/or experience.
I very much doubt that this is the case, since there must surely not be any shortage of Chinese people wanting to teach English, albeit for the wages that are so low compared to what the schools would be paying the FTs. The teachers at the primary school that I taught at for a year were getting an average of 1,000 RMB per month, whereas I was receiving five times that amount.
The school could therefore have hired five Chinese teachers of English for the amount that it was paying me! Wuhan is one of the largest city in China, so there is definitely no shortage of local people on that score! |
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