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Will.
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 783 Location: London Uk
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Right....here I come
Thr franchise schools will not pay a decent wage. Bull.... the wage is excellent .............compared to local wages, though even newbies offer something the locals can't; life experience in an English speaking country and native speaker competency (sometimes)
Unfortunately, Our newby teachers are not locals do not have years of local knowledge and experience to help them when purchasing. It costs more for them to live than it does for a local.
I can remember one person whose wages did not even meet the cost of the phone bill...it was a big bill. we make many more international phoine calls. Biut I have never heard of a contract with one phone call a month from work to wherever back home is.
The fee charged, by the school, to a company needing them, for my services as an educator in Poland was 7 to 8 times higher than my hourly rate.
Now excluding the cost of my airline ticket and my accomodation I think there is a little bit too much room for a profit margin there don't you?
And as for praising the teacher development. Who are the knowledgeable individuals doing this? New entrants to the profession their judgement clouded by what they have come to believe is acceptable teacher training.
To what and with what are they making comparison? It is like believing your students when they tell you you're lesson was excellent, Do you believe them?
We all know better than this and we all know franchise schools have to get their franchise fee...not cheap. They make up for it from our wages.
Would anyone like to post the cost of franchise fees for the big four? |
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biffinbridge
Joined: 05 May 2003 Posts: 701 Location: Frank's Wild Years
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:57 am Post subject: I've been tangoed. |
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Will,it was me who had the phonebill which was bigger than my monthly salary.ha ha . |
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Will.
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 783 Location: London Uk
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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:33 am Post subject: |
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I know, i thought i would include t=your rep for you...
but, glad to see alcohol has not clouded your memory, that was one fine phone bill. |
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Martin P
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 16
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks Alex |
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biffinbridge wrote: |
Alex is right.Martin ,methinks you are an IH DOS or something like that although you seem to know a bit about me so maybe I knew you from Doha.I was in Poland last week and I signed a contract paying 70zl an hour net.30 hours a week will pay me 2100zl (weekly).IH's salaries are a disgrace that is a fact.Wake up and smell the coffee. |
No, I'm not an IH DOS.
I only know about you what anyone else can see from your interesting posting history.
I'm quite aware IH salaries are fairly weak and have not claimed otherwise. I have claimed that they're not so much worse than comparable schools in Poland.
Congratulations on your contract - is it a teaching job with a language school? |
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Martin P
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 16
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: and one more thing |
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I see nothing's changed much in the five years since I last browsed Dave's regularly.
biffinbridge wrote: |
And one more thing...a DIP gives no-one the right to wax lyrical about neurolinguistic programming and the like. |
Has anyone been talking about NLP? FWIW, I think it's intellectual garbage. The DELTA, on the other hand, is a flawed, but valuable gauge of teaching ability, but I'm not sure why you brought it up either.
biffinbridge wrote: |
As anyone who's been in elt for a while will know most of what you learn in workshops is common sense. |
I (and pretty much everyone I know in EFL) beg to differ. Back-chaining is not common sense, nor is process writing, the phonemic alphabet or TBL.
biffinbridge wrote: |
I remember going to an IH workshop on 'Action Research' and laughing at the teacher trainer who clearly took himself far too seriously, while explaining that it was a good idea to get feedback from your students.Another's key motto was 'Response-ability'.(He thought that was really amusing).I knew the last three DOSs of IH Bydgoszcz and I knew the ex DOS of IH Torun.They all came to the Gulf because they were broke after working for IH for many years. |
You do seem to have something of a grudge against IH.
biffinbridge wrote: |
Most teaching development is worthless unless it is practical.Knowing about Chomsky and Krashen will not help you teach Headway/Cutting Edge,which is probably what you will teach at IH. |
In what sense is learning about Krashen not practical? A belief (or disbelief ) in a fixed order of language acquistion or the monitor hypothesis will clearly inform ones teaching, whether that is based on a coursebook or not.
Chomsky is a different issue, I agree that he is not (and has never claimed to be) a guide to practical pedagogy. I also have rarely noticed him being discussed in depth in teacher-development programmes. Perhaps your experience differs.
biffinbridge wrote: |
'Teaching Development', in my experience of only 11 years,is a term used by HR departments in poorly paying schools to attract new teachers who don't know any better. |
So do you feel you haven't developed at all over 11 years or that your development has been entirely independent of your reading or colleagues? If one can improve one's teaching, it seems strange to assert that it cannot be aided by a structured programme. Especially if that's what one offers one's students...
biffinbridge wrote: |
Put that in ya pipe and smoke it and don't criticize my value system. |
I don't recall criticising your value system. I'm tempted to offer a mild rebuke at the standard of your rhetoric, but I doubt it would have much effect. My pipe agrees. |
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Martin P
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 16
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Will. wrote: |
We all know better than this and we all know franchise schools have to get their franchise fee...not cheap. They make up for it from our wages.
Would anyone like to post the cost of franchise fees for the big four? |
A quick clarification - IH is not a franchise school. It's a network of affiliates, whose affiliation fees do little more than cover the costs of regular inspections and so forth. |
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biffinbridge
Joined: 05 May 2003 Posts: 701 Location: Frank's Wild Years
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:21 pm Post subject: re- |
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Ok let's get a few things straight.I don't have a problem with IH in particular.I have a problem with affiliate/franchise schools in Poland that sell poor teaching development to vulnerable new teachers and pay well below the going market rate.Most of the development I have experienced has come from co-operation in the staffroom and self study rather than structured development a la IH etc.Development for classroom teachers is really only useful if it's practical,(as I said).Yes, backchaining,TBL and using phonemes are all useful,practical ideas but you don't need these ideas sold to you as if they are part of the package.You can observe colleagues,ask questions in the staffroom and read publications.Doing a DELTA may well inform you but is it worth signing your life away to IH in order to get them to pay for it?IH Bydgoszcz pay 1,500 zl a month to new hire teachers and Profi-lingua pay 8,400 for a 120 hour month.Enough said.Over the years I've attended a lot of workshops and have found no value in the theoretical ones whatsoever.Areas such as classroom management,feedback,action research,monitoring etc are really down to common sense.Anyway for what it's worth,I feel that teaching is a skill for which some people have a natural ability and once a certain level is reached, no amount of deveopment can help them progress.If you want to be a DOS and have credibility, then fine.If you want to be a teacher trainer or write course books, then by all means learn all the theory.But,for classroom teachers,whose teaching methods and techniques are largely determined by others who choose the books they teach from,the knowledge is superfluous.You don't have to know how the engine works to drive a car well. Selling the idea of teaching development and suggesting that you'll be a better teacher if you sign for us is really a distraction to more pressing concerns like;can I live on this salary, will my shared accommodation be with some 'nutter' and are they really paying my taxes? |
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Kymro
Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 244
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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I would tend to agree with BB about 'teacher development' which I would regard as (often) less valuable than (a) experience and (b) common sense.
I am, however, somewhat sceptical about BB and AS's tales of fabulous wealth to be had in post-Communist Eastern Europe.
To start off with BB's 8,4 PLN to be had at Profi-Lingua.
I presume this is only for the months/weeks you actually teach (29 weeks a year). If you take away holidays your monthly salary drops to 5k a month.
I also presume your salary is brutto not netto (e.g. before tax) . After tax deductions you earn 4k.
70 per hour. I presume with Profi-Lingua you are talking zegarowa (clock) hour, and not 45m teaching hour. Taking the above into account (that you are teaching 25% more than in a school that calculates on teaching hours), your monthly salary is in fact 3k, what a DOS might get in IH, but without having your ZUS paid leaving you without health cover.
Profi-Lingua have a very poor reputation in Poland. If you know Polish try here........
http://www.ang.pl/A_Profi_Lingua_1488.html |
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biffinbridge
Joined: 05 May 2003 Posts: 701 Location: Frank's Wild Years
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: re- |
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I saw my friend's contract.The rate of pay is 70zl/40 minute hour.They have a policy which covers you for basic health care.The contract is between October the 1st and the end of June.9 months is approximately 39 weeks.Depending on what you are teaching you will lose 1 week at Christmas,probably 2 weeks winter break and 1 week at easter but not necessarily so.You also have the option to earn more by doing additional conversation classes.Because they have a special tax limiting scheme set up,(something to do with the organization of the company), you pay a small rate of tax.So let's say you work for 35 weeks.1 week=30 hours=2100 zl.Total=73,500zl.Even if you pay 20% tax you get 58,800.Divide by 9 you get approx 6,533zl/month over a nine month period.Since you will pay less than 20% you'll get more than 7,000/month.There is also a bonus. (If you teach the full year then the sums are different)That beats the hell out of anything anyone else is offering right now.Then you can go and do summer school for 400 quid a week in the UK,(if you've got 10 years exp. that's what you'll get.)Profi-lingua also offer ongoing teaching development,the school I saw was well resourced and according to my many Polish friends it has the best reputation in that city;they know that because several of them pay their hard earned cash to study there.I don't work for them and I have never worked for them.I have,on the other hand, worked for IH,the British Council,JDJ (aargh) and UCET in Poland.As for the teachers;I know several.The interview process involved a detailed questionnaire,an interview and a comprehensive lesson plan;quite rigorous by Polish standards.My interview for IH in London was a ,'Well where do you want to teach?' kind of interview and I was there a week later earning the generous sum of 900zl/month plus a shared flat on the edge of town,employed as a 'voluntary worker',paid through the UK tax system.Needless to say,the school generously used my tax rebate to avoid their own tax obligations.The IH propaganda must work though because I've met loads of their teachers over the years who really believe that IH's touchy feely approach is the way forward.Fortunately,I've worked for a lot of other schools and companies and know better.I'm sure there are very good IH schools but you can't escape the fact that they pay very badly in Poland. |
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003 Posts: 553
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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^ Biffin! Stop posting hard facts and numbers on this forum! Kymro is a part-owner in a school in Poland. The last thing he needs is people finding out what the good schools actually pay. If they know what schools can afford to pay and still make a fair profit for the owners then poor Kymro might have to accept lower profits. And that just can't be allowed to happen! |
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Kymro
Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 244
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: re- |
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biffinbridge wrote: |
I saw my friend's contract.The rate of pay is 70zl/40 minute hour.They have a policy which covers you for basic health care.The contract is between October the 1st and the end of June.9 months is approximately 39 weeks.Depending on what you are teaching you will lose 1 week at Christmas,probably 2 weeks winter break and 1 week at easter but not necessarily so.You also have the option to earn more by doing additional conversation classes.Because they have a special tax limiting scheme set up,(something to do with the organization of the company), you pay a small rate of tax.So let's say you work for 35 weeks.1 week=30 hours=2100 zl.Total=73,500zl.Even if you pay 20% tax you get 58,800.Divide by 9 you get approx 6,533zl/month over a nine month period.Since you will pay less than 20% you'll get more than 7,000/month.There is also a bonus. (If you teach the full year then the sums are different)That beats the hell out of anything anyone else is offering right now.Then you can go and do summer school for 400 quid a week in the UK,(if you've got 10 years exp. that's what you'll get.)Profi-lingua also offer ongoing teaching development,the school I saw was well resourced and according to my many Polish friends it has the best reputation in that city;they know that because several of them pay their hard earned cash to study there.I don't work for them and I have never worked for them.I have,on the other hand, worked for IH,the British Council,JDJ (aargh) and UCET in Poland.As for the teachers;I know several.The interview process involved a detailed questionnaire,an interview and a comprehensive lesson plan;quite rigorous by Polish standards.My interview for IH in London was a ,'Well where do you want to teach?' kind of interview and I was there a week later earning the generous sum of 900zl/month plus a shared flat on the edge of town,employed as a 'voluntary worker',paid through the UK tax system.Needless to say,the school generously used my tax rebate to avoid their own tax obligations.The IH propaganda must work though because I've met loads of their teachers over the years who really believe that IH's touchy feely approach is the way forward.Fortunately,I've worked for a lot of other schools and companies and know better.I'm sure there are very good IH schools but you can't escape the fact that they pay very badly in Poland. |
As an English teacher it would be advisable for you to learn to use paragraphs.
Then your contributions would be easier to read. |
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Kymro
Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 244
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: re- |
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biffinbridge wrote: |
The contract is between October the 1st and the end of June.9 months is approximately 39 weeks. |
No it isn't.
Their semesters total 58 hours, or 14 1/2 weeks, 29 weeks in a year.
A DoS at a large language school would be paid for 52 weeks, or all year.
Therefore an International House DoS, if paid half as much, would in fact be earning almost the same. |
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Kymro
Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 244
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: re- |
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biffinbridge wrote: |
the school I saw was well resourced and according to my many Polish friends it has the best reputation in that city;they know that because several of them pay their hard earned cash to study there. |
Not according to the 400-odd posts on this thread.
http://www.ang.pl/A_Profi_Lingua_1488.html
(And I could find many similar). |
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Kymro
Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 244
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: re- |
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biffinbridge wrote: |
As for the teachers;I know several. |
So do I.
(a) The selection procedure is far from rigorous.
(b) The teachers have to follow an encyclopaedic set of rules and regulations, obey a dress code and wear a name-tag, (like in McDonald's).
(c) They are paid far less than 70zl per 40 minutes. |
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biffinbridge
Joined: 05 May 2003 Posts: 701 Location: Frank's Wild Years
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: ha ha |
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Dear Kymro,
You are simply wrong.I've got the contract in front of me as they've just offered me a job.
The rules and regs are comprehensive and do cover a dress code.I don't see anything wrong with a school that insists on teachers turning up to work on time, looking presentable and not hungover.You obviously haven't been around because in much of the world companies do insist on many of the things that Profilingua have enforced in writing.If you want to see rules, get out to the Middle East or Libya.At least the framework in which the teacher has to operate is clear from the beginning.Such rules also cut both ways because you are legally entitled to take them to court should they terminate your employment for some arbitrary reason not covered by the said regulations.
As for the money and length of contract;there are some financial penalties for certain things but basically only if you mess up.70 zl/hour minus a low rate of tax is what they pay, period.There is also a bonus.In addition, you do have the option to extend as there are classes going on right now.
And Healthcare?As a Brit you are covered for medical emergencies.I have been treated by Polish hospitals on three occasions and have never paid a penny.
Paragraphs?Come on,get a life.This is a forum not a proficency class.Many people,myself included, fail to punctuate or organize their texts when sending informal letters and e-mails etc.This evolution in 'genre writing skills' is not new- (go and read some reference books).The content and meaning of my previous post is very clear with or without paragraphs.It is not a gap in my knowledge but a reflection of my lazy keyboard skills.Next time I need your advice I'll p.m. you but don't expect it to be soon.Believe it or not,you actually have to be rather good to get and keep jobs in the M.E.,represent universities at IATEFL and work for UCLES as I have.Cheerio. |
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