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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:12 am Post subject: |
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The school that I originally wrote about. EF Yuyoa is now advertising
(free?) on www.buxiban.com. This website give the school ratings of 1 to 5 stars. If one person complains they get 4 stars. The problem is very very few teachers complain. I know of 10 teachers who have been treated badly but yet not one of them has complained on the internet about the school where they worked.
So the system that this (Buxiban) web site has created gives a very faulse picture, the system is flawed.
Some of these bad schools "play the system" They look as if they are very good but in reality are the pits.
It is important that when teachers are cheated they complain on the internet - warn others. I beleive it is a ethical duty.
Many recruiters will try, some who post on this site, to discourage you from complaing - but that is in THEIR interest.
Please try and care about future teachers. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Gulam2, I am not sure what your problem is with EF and now apparently with the Buxiban site, but I suggest that you get your facts straight if you want people to take the content of your posts seriously.
I am involved with the site www.buxiban.com and although a lot of what I am going to say below is contained on our site already, it appears that some people may have overlooked this information and jumped to the wrong conclusion.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| The school that I originally wrote about. EF Yuyoa is now advertising (free?) on www.buxiban.com. |
That is correct. Every school has the right to advertise positions on the buxiban site. The only exclusion is schools that have the lowest one star rating. These schools need to first show that they have improved their empoyment practices before we allow them to post job ads on the site.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| This website give the school ratings of 1 to 5 stars. If one person complains they get 4 stars. |
That is incorrect and indicates that you didn't take the time to read the information on the buxiban site about how the ratings are devised. Obviously a four star rating would indicate favorable information, not negative information. This is not unlike the star rating system used by hotels.
The school in question - EF Yuyao - has in fact a three star rating on our site not a four star rating as you suggest. A three star rating effectively means that the school has no significant positive nor significant negative comments about it. In fact there is only one comment about the school available, and that is one that you posted just last week. Despite a request from the buxiban site for further information and a detailed account of the situation with the school, the comment online was the only submission that you made. As explained to you by email, comments that are well thought out and well supported hold more credibility than those that contain a lot of criticisms based upon personal opinons. If you don't wish to take the time to write a credible review that is your choice, but it looks somewhat unreasonable for you to then turn around and complain about that.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| I know of 10 teachers who have been treated badly but yet not one of them has complained on the internet about the school where they worked. |
So if these 10 teachers don't take the time to complain and actually submit information about their experiences then you should encourage them to do so, not complain about the fact that information that doesn't exist can't be found on the internet.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| So the system that this (Buxiban) web site has created gives a very faulse picture, the system is flawed. |
Now what makes you think that?
Were you perhaps thinking that the school would be blacklisted by the buxiban site based solely upon your single complaint that lacks very little information? Surely, were that to have been the case then the site would be flawed as it would be unreasonable. I suggest that you read up about the rating system used on the buxiban site before you post uninformed comments like this on a public forum.
If you truely believe that the school you complain about is a bad school and that teachers should be warned about it then I suggest two things:
1. That you take the time to explain carefully what the problems are with the school, and how you believe these problems will impact upon future teachers and write these down in a way that teachers not familiar with the school will understand.
2. That you encourage other teachers who have worked at the school to share their experiences so that we can all get a clearer picture of what the school is like.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| It is important that when teachers are cheated they complain on the internet - warn others. I beleive it is a ethical duty. |
Exactly, and this is one of the purposes of the site www.buxiban.com and another site www.chinaschoolreview.com . For both of these sites to be effective however comments submitted to these sites need to be credible, well thought out, and well written, and schools and recruiters named need to be given the opportunity to reply. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:32 am Post subject: |
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It is indeed sad that a web-site which pertains to help teachers.
Encourages Schools (EF) that have had a lot BAD publicity to advertise for free on their site. My warning to all is take what you read on www.buxiban.com with a pinch of salt. Anyone looking for work in China PLEASE do find out as much information as you can about the school which you are applying for. Do not just use ONE website which may well give you an incorrect picture.
If you want my opinion (DO NOT ONLY TAKE MY OPINION)
please feel free to e-mail on [email protected] (Opinion on EF- Yuyoa or on China in general) |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| gulam2 wrote: |
It is indeed sad that a web-site which pertains to help teachers.
Encourages Schools (EF) that have had a lot BAD publicity to advertise for free on their site. My warning to all is take what you read on www.buxiban.com with a pinch of salt. Anyone looking for work in China PLEASE do find out as much information as you can about the school which you are applying for. Do not just use ONE website which may well give you an incorrect picture. |
Let me clarify one thing about the buxiban site that seems to have escaped gulam2.
Buxiban is not meant to be a site solely for foreign teachers to dump upon schools. There are already plenty of these types of sites out there, and while such sites serve a purpose, it is not our intention to go in that direction. It is human nature that people will complain about things more readily than they will say positive things, and it is very easy for a misunderstanding to be the cause of considerable resentment between teachers and schools.
Had we not allowed your comments on the site because we were somehow trying to defend the school that you posted about, then you may have a reason for making the above statement. The fact is though, we have your comment on our site, and it is available for registered users. Your complaint about the school has been noted. I re-iterate my earlier recommendation that you submit a comprehensive, and preferrably non-emotive, outline of your problems at the school. Additionally, to add weight to your concerns I suggested that you could encourage the 10 other teachers that you refer to post comments on our site. To date you have done neither of these, so your while your complaint is noted on our site, it doesn't have a lot of credibility. It is ludicrous to suggest that a school should be punished based upon one single, loosely constructed complaint, and to do such would undermine the value of our site.
Going back to the five star model used by hotels, your suggestion would be equivalent to a Hilton Hotel being given a one star rating based upon one individual complaint about the staff not providing the service expected. Obviously, hotel ratings are earned based upon consistent good or bad quality, not a single complaint. While the buxiban site is not at that level, it is a good model for us to follow.
One of the main purposes of the buxiban site is information. Both teachers and schools are welcome to add this information. As the information builds for each school it will become apparent whether or not a school is bad or not. If a school is bad then the quantity of posts from different users suggesting this will have an impact upon that schools rating on the site. On the other hand, a school that is doing a good job as determined by a quantity of positive posts on our site will be rewarded with a good rating. It is not for us decide whether a school is bad based upon one unsubstantiated report, but more for the users of our site to decide for themselves based upon the information on the site, and the rating system reflects a quantity and quality of posts rather than just one comment.
We are proud that our site is as objective as possible. In fact I personally would love to have more recommended schools on the site. Having a list of schools and recruiters to which teachers and potential teachers can turn is really one of our major aims, and I encourage everyone to support the site by making both positive and negative submissions about schools. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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The previous poster is correct about one thing. I did not read the information about the sight clearly enough. But now I think I understand.
www. buxiban.com is a web site where bad schools can pretend to be good schools. It is a site where the victims - the poor teachers that have been abused - end up having to defend themselves against these evil employers.
May I reitterate to all readers. There are not only bad schools and recruiters but also web-sites which will mislead you.
It is very important to seek the opinions of others - ask to speak to teachers at the school and previous teachers.
I am NOT asking you to take MY word, I am asking you to find out as much information as possible about these *** **** and ***** schools.
If anyone wants a (subjective) opinion about EF Yuyoa PLEASE feel free to contact me.
There are many web-sites, find out as much as you can before you accept a job. If you have a bad experience, post it on one of the few web sites
(such as this one and Nates) that will allow you to do so.
Please be careful. I am saying this because I have been cheated three times in three years. Am I bitter? , ofcourse I am. Am I angry?, ofcourse I am, Am I at fault? YES I am, I should have been more careful.
Also when you have a bad experience - told a number of lies or cheated
please try and warn others. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Gulam2 you sound to me like your own worst enemy. If you don't want to accept the obvious then that is your right, but please stop trying to pretend that your problems are the fault of others.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| I did not read the information about the sight clearly enough. |
I think that this has become pretty obvious from the comments you have been making. Maybe if you took as much time actually researching schools and websites as you spend complaining about them, you may find that you don't have so many problems with schools.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| But now I think I understand. www. buxiban.com is a web site where bad schools can pretend to be good schools. It is a site where the victims - the poor teachers that have been abused - end up having to defend themselves against these evil employers. |
Mate, if that is your understanding of the site, then I am not surprised that you have trouble living in China, and I reiterate my earlier comments that you are likely your worst enemy.
Please point out any school on the buxiban site that has a good rating that you can show is not warranted. The fact is that there are none, and you look pretty silly for suggesting it to be the case.
As explained, buxiban is a site for information, not mis-information. What it most certainly is not is a site where we support foreign teachers blindly just because they are foreign teachers. We support those who have been wronged, and expose those that are wrong. If a teacher has been wronged by a school then we give them plenty of latitute to lay out their case. Many teachers do this and their comments are appreciated by the site. It is not a case of proving things beyond a reasonable doubt, it is just a matter of writing a balanced and intelligent comment in a way that problems at the school become clear. I note that despite all your talk here in this thread, that you have yet to actually explain the nature of your complaint with the school, nor have any of the 10 teachers you refer to made comment about problems at the school. It seems odd that you would be the only one to make a comment about the school if indeed there were major problems there that were experienced by at least 10 other teachers.
If a teacher has a problem and tries to blame that upon a school without clearly explaining their problem then that will become obvious to the users of the site. If you choose to be the latter, then that is your choice, but don't complain about it.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| May I reitterate to all readers. There are not only bad schools and recruiters but also web-sites which will mislead you. |
Well to add any credibility to this claim you should really explain your reasoning behind it. I know it not to be true in the case of the buxiban site, but I welcome you to explain your reasons for suggesting this. So far you have thrown around a lot of accusations but have failed to back any of these up with any real information or facts.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| It is very important to seek the opinions of others - ask to speak to teachers at the school and previous teachers. |
Yes, agreed. And this is exactly why the buxiban site hosts a Teacher Mentors List which is a list of teachers that users can contact with questions about schools. Funnily enough gulam2 name is on that very list. Let us know gulam2 if you would like us to remove your name from the list considering your concerns about the validity of the site.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| If anyone wants a (subjective) opinion about EF Yuyoa PLEASE feel free to contact me. |
This seems a little strange to me. You brought your concerns about the EF Yuyao school into the public arena through posts here at Daves and over at Buxiban, yet when pressed for further information you retreat to offering information privately via email. Surely if your concerns about that school are legitimate then you should have no problem explaining them on the public forum that you raised them on. I would think it somewhat irresponsible of you to raise concerns here and then fail to support them.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| If you have a bad experience, post it on one of the few web sites (such as this one and Nates) that will allow you to do so. |
Agreed these are both good sites, and in fact I believe that I recommended Nates site to you in an earlier post. I also appreciate your support of the buxiban site as that site also allowed you to post your comment, so following your logic that places us alongside Nates and Daves.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| Please be careful. I am saying this because I have been cheated three times in three years. Am I bitter? , ofcourse I am. Am I angry?, ofcourse I am, Am I at fault? YES I am, I should have been more careful. |
 ...or you should just stop and think before you act! Or post! Despite what you might think, the world is not out to get you gulam2. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Above is a common tactic used by defense lawyers.
Don't defend the culprit attack the victim.
I was the victim. If he wants to make me look like the culprit - fine.
It is important that future teachers are not mislead by web sites that pertain to be one thing but are in fact something else.
For all future teachers (and present teacher); Try and contact as many present and past teachers as you can. For schools like EF read the threads. Don't just depend on one web site it could be flawed and mislead you. Look around get the general feeling. My feeling is that amongst the
70 odd EF schools in China there are maybe half a dozen good ones.
Yuyao is not one of them.
Victims should not have to defend themselves, whether they are rape victims or whether they are victims (teachers) of bad schools.
Many teachers have very bad experiences and it is (sadly) precisely because of the attitudes of web sites such as www.buxiban.com that they are too frightened to complain. I know of 5 teachers this year that have returned home after bad experiences - but they wont to go the internet because they fear the reaction (like above) that they may get.
As Englishgibon states it takes courage to complain. It does not take courage for a bad school to advertise on a free internet site.
I hate complaining, I love teaching. But it is my duty to complain.
It is only if we complain that we will protect teachers of the future.
Please keep an open mind about these things. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Gulam2 I don't see how you can compare yourself to a rape victim nor to Englishgibson.
A rape victim is a victim of a crime no matter what the mitigating circumstances may be. You have not been the victim of a crime (or at least you have not shown that you were the victim of a crime), and as I mentioned before you in fact seem to invite trouble as you go off half cocked without thinking.
Englishgibson has a point to his posts - you don't.
Englishgibson has answered questions raised about his complaints - you haven't.
Englishgibson has clearly stated what his problem with his school was - you haven't.
Posters such as Englishgibson are most welcome to post comments on buxiban.com as they clearly have a legitimate gripe against a school.
You on the other seem to create the problems that you encounter, and this is why you have been unable to actually explain what the problem with the EF school in Yuyao is. So I ask you again for the fifth time, what exactly was your problem with EF Yuyao.
I am beginning to think that if anyone contacted the school that the school would know exactly who you are without the need for a name, and I am pretty sure that their story would be a lot different from yours. Just from the way you have tried to make something out of nothing about the buxiban.com site, it seems clear that you could also be trying to make something out of nothing about EF Yuyao. This would certainly help to explain why:
1. You haven't taken the time to explain the problems clearly and coherently.
2. The other ten teachers that you speak about have not posted. Do these teachers even exist? I am starting to wonder.
| gulam2 wrote: |
Above is a common tactic used by defense lawyers.
Don't defend the culprit attack the victim. |
You seem confused.
It is you who is doing the attacking. You came here, and to buxiban.com to attack EF Yuyao. We accepted the information that you provided and asked for further clarification. You then came here and started to attack the buxiban site.
If you are the victim that you claim to be then how about you start providing some information about why it is that you are such a victim? Again, it seems to me that you make yourself a victim, a victim of your own doing, not anybody elses.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| It is important that future teachers are not mislead by web sites that pertain to be one thing but are in fact something else. |
Again you make a claim that you do not support. You really should support claims that you make if you want people to take your posts seriously and if you want to give credibility to what you say.
| gulam2 wrote: |
| Many teachers have very bad experiences and it is (sadly) precisely because of the attitudes of web sites such as www.buxiban.com that they are too frightened to complain. . |
Obviously not as the buxiban site has more comments about schools than any other site that I am aware of. This is no doubt because most people realize that it is more effective to post their comments on a quality site.
The fact is that our site accepted your comment without problem. You were asked for further clarification, but were given no pressure when this further clarification was not provided by you. You even chose to add your name to our list of teacher mentors. Unfortunately you then chose to come here and make unfactual and disparraging remarks about the buxiban site, unfortunate not for the fact you made these remarks, but unfortunate for you that we saw them. You were obviously not expecting a reply, and you have failed to substantiate your case as to why you have a problem with the buxiban site.
It is pretty clear where the problem in all this lies. I am sure that it is not with buxiban.com, and I am becoming more convinced with each post you make that the problem does not lie with EF Yuyao.
| gulam2 wrote: |
I hate complaining, I love teaching. But it is my duty to complain.
It is only if we complain that we will protect teachers of the future. |
Mate you love to complain. You are one of those people who never stops complaining about anything and everything.
The problem is that all of your complaining is fruitless as you never actually give any detail about what it is you are complaining about. The sooner you actually do this, the sooner you will find that people actually find your posts beneficial. |
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Noelle
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 361
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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G2:
You did "save" one person, remember? Are you not happy? You've made your point... um... quite a few times.
Life is short, buddy. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Yes you are right Noelle.
It is pointless replying to attacks by www. buxiban.com.
I am just sorry for the teachers that will be mislead.
But it is probably time that I moved on and let others do the warning. |
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benno
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 501
Location: Fake Mongolia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:03 am Post subject: |
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enough already
jeez no wonder you got shafted
complaining git |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:07 am Post subject: EF |
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Benno, you should be ashamed attacking fellow teachers here.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Gulam2, I am not sure what your problem is with EF and now apparently with the Buxiban site, but I suggest that you get your facts straight if you want people to take the content of your posts seriously.
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Mate, he just tried to point out the rating system of the schools on that site which by the way stinks. So, your ignorance is unbelievable.
If you are not sure what his problem is and what the EF problem is then LEARN HOW TO FOLLOW OR MAYBE READ BETTER.
Now, if you want the people to take “Buxiban” and its schools’ ratings seriously than I SUGGEST YOU GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.
Cheers and beers |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:00 am Post subject: Re: EF |
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Well I must say that I am surprised by this post.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Benno, you should be ashamed attacking fellow teachers here. |
I don't see that Benno was attacking anyone. He was merely pointing out the obvious to someone who just wasn't getting it.
If you have a look at the record of some peoples posts, you will see a commonality among those posts. In this case, there is a predominance of complaints about basically every one the user has had an involvement with in their time in China. Now it is possible that all of these other people have been in the wrong and that this person has a had a run of extremely bad luck. But then again there is the possibility that this person creates the situations that he gets into. If my experience with him is anything to go by, then it is clear to me where the problem lies.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Mate, he just tried to point out the rating system of the schools on that site which by the way stinks. |
Where in any of his posts has he outlined any problems with the rating system on the buxiban site? Please quote him on this as I would be very interested in seeing what you are referring to.
The fact is that his post was an unsubstantiated complaint, where he commented incorrectly about the rating system on that site. I then corrected him. It really was as simple as that.
This is what he said in his original post on the subject of the rating system of the buxiban site:
| gulam2 wrote: |
| This website give the school ratings of 1 to 5 stars. If one person complains they get 4 stars. |
A simple look at the site will show that the above is incorrect. And in fact goes against common sense which would dictate that a four star rating is a good, not a bad thing.
I assume that you have taken offence to my posting as I have not automatically condemmned English First. Well I won't condemn a whole organization because of problems in some franchises, especially when the problems alluded to have not been properly explained. That would be just silly, and counterproductive. You have done a good job of publicizing your concerns about a couple of the franchises that you have been directly involved with. This does not however mean that you know about every franchise in the English First chain.
You are quite welcome to post any concerns that you may have about schools on the buxiban site, but please make sure that these posts meet the guidelines of that site. Guidelines that are not too different from the guidelines over at Nate's site.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| So, your ignorance is unbelievable. |
I think comments like that are out of line and certainly do not speak highly of yourself as a communicator.
| englishgibson wrote: |
If you are not sure what his problem is and what the EF problem is then LEARN HOW TO FOLLOW OR MAYBE READ BETTER.
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I am fully aware of concerns with some EF franchises.
Gulam2 however raised concerns about one franchise in particular, the Yuyao franchise, and I have simply asked him to explain what his problems were. There seems little point to posting a 'stay away from this school' warning if you don't outline why teachers should stay away from that particular school. I mean whats the point?
If you have personal knowledge of the Yuyao school that you feel could add to his concerns then I welcome you to raise these concerns. I have not at any stage defended that school, but I think it reasonable that if someone is going to say something negative about any school that they back these concerns up with something of substance.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Now, if you want the people to take �Buxiban� and its schools� ratings seriously than I SUGGEST YOU GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. |
Quite honestly I am not sure what the above sentence means.
I assume that you are suggesting that in your opinion you have concerns about the rating system on the buxiban site. If so then maybe you would like to outline those concerns. I don't have any concerns with the rating system and it seems very straightforward and very fair to me. If you have any suggestions then I welcome you to send these to us at that site, or here on this forum if nobody else objects to this. Personally though, I would think that none of this is of any interest to other users of this board, and this discussion is just detracting from the value of this thread as far as being about EF.
When it comes down to it though, the buxiban site is a free source of information that teachers can choose to refer to if they want to. If you and gulam2 do not like the site then you are certainly entitled not to use it. But if you are going to suggest that it is not a worthwhile site then I suggest that you back this suggestion up with some reasoning to give your comments some credibility. I don't think it unreasonable of me to ask you to explain comments that you make about a school, or a site, and if there is any substance to what you are saying then other users will see that. |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Clark, I hadn't checked out the sight before but I just registered. I was very impressed with it. You have even inspired me to write a good report about my school. I agree with you that one teacher's complaints should not cause a school to be blacklisted. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Babala, thanks for taking the time to make this comment. It is appreciated and I look forward to receiving your review. |
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