Job Discussion Forums

[englishgibson]

Now look who makes the errors, YOUR EF LIST Clark is rather "AMUSING". First according to “YOUR EF LIST” Noelle was to have had good experiences in EF Huizhou, and then Chris Crossley in EF Hangzhou. By the way, I have said a positive and a negative thing about EF Hangzhou, so how did I end up on “YOUR EF POSITIVES LIST there only”? Read the posts more carefully, “KEEP YOUR THUMBS DOWN WHEN READING”, and as you tend to give so many suggestions “I’D SUGGEST YOU GO BACK AND READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS/THREADS OF MANY OTHER EF-UNHAPPY PARTICIPANTS TOO”. In brief, YOUR EF LIST is highly subjective.

Here is my contribution to “YOUR EF LIST” for now.

Bad Experiences

EF English First Head Office Shanghai – Englishgibson (Recruiting unable to provide experienced/qualified staff)
EF English First Head Office Shanghai – Englishgibson (Academic Operations Manager M.R. still unqualified/disorganized), Chris Crossley (M.R. “unhelpful”)
EF Hangzhou - brsmith15
EF Huizhou - Englishgibson Director of Studies, Keath worked there, and a few others that worked there
EF Yuyao - gulam2
EF Zhuhai - Balrog, Darius
EF Hangzhou – Englishgibson (one thumb down to one self-centered DOS there)
EF Daqing – Third party report (Thanks to Englishgibson and an EF Daqing teacher)
EF Zhuhai – Third party report (Thanks to Englishgibson)
EF Changsha –
EF Fuzhou – Englishgibson (DOS/Senior Teacher/Teacher there, and 8 other teachers that left)
EF Dalian – Third party report (Thanks to Englishgibson)
EF Donguan – Third party report (Thanks to Englishgibson)
EF Xiamen – Third party report (Thanks to Englishgibson)
EF Urumqi – Tom Selleck


Good Experiences

EF Hangzhou - Englishgibson (one thumb up to one DOS there who might not even be there anymore)
EF Hefei - Third party report (Thanks to Noelle)
EF Kunming - no_exit (works there), deezy (visited the center)
EF Pudong - matador (one year experience there and then out of China)
EF Qingdao - deezy (visited? Heard from others?) tw’s “based upon location” means what Clark?
EF Suzhou - Third part report (Thanks to Noelle)
EF Weihai - deezy (DOS at that school)
EF Wuxi - Third party report (Thanks to Noelle)
EF Xi'an - Third party report (Thanks to Noelle)

[englishgibson]

EF Changsha has not got a name of the teacher yet on "EF LIST OF CLARK" due to my current search for. I'm sorry I've been really busy lately.

Cheer and beers

[clark.w.griswald]

[englishgibson]

Clark, GIVE US ALL a break, speak for yourself, and make your tail-chasing posts more accurate, more efficient and more truthful in fact. And above all, let us know about that EF experience of yours, will ya? With all due respect, you sound like that "blind referee" on this thread.

Cheers and beers

[mike w]

TIME OUT !!

I thought this was supposed to be a thread about EF. How wrong could I be?

'Tis nought but a mud-slinging match between two people attacking each others credibility and integrity. Get a life guys!

[clark.w.griswald]

In an effort to get this thread back on track I have taken some time to go through past posts about EF. Considering that EF has employed so many teachers over the years I was certainly surprised at the relative scarcity of reports. We all know that EF is a much talked about school, but many of the comments made about EF are actually made by a handful of posters on this forum.

There is certainly a lot of negativity out there which is no surprise to anyone, but I noticed a few patterns in this negativity:

a) many of the negative comments came from about four individuals on this forum. These individuals may have had legitimate problems with EF, but it is likely that their personal experiences were limited to one or two EF schools.

b) many of the negative comments that are made are very vague and largely personality based. There are very few details given in the negative complaints on a whole. I did see one quite legitimate complaint about problems with a Z visa and failure to pay wages at one particular branch.

c) It seems that a lot of people are critical of the wage offered for the high workload required. I can understand this and I can�t suggest that a 40 hour week would be a good thing, but it does seem to me that it is EF�s right to require that workload, and the individual teachers right to either accept or refuse those hours. I don�t see that it is grounds for complaint.

When it comes to positive posts, it was very clear that the moment someone posted anything positive about their experiences with EF they were almost instantly greeted with scorn from those posters whose names are synonymous with EF bashing. I would certainly not be surprised if this discouraged people with positive words about EF, and resulted in these people choosing to keep silent.

I have listed what seem to be relevant comments about specific schools in the EF chain below. I didn�t include general comments. I only included comments about specific schools in the chain. I didn�t include comments about friends or friends, I tried to only include comments from individuals with personal experiences at those schools. Finally, I have not listed comments from the Job Information Journal as that is an area of the site that teachers tend to post on when they don�t want people to reply to their posts.

So here is the list. Please don�t complain about comments that aren�t on the list as really anyone could have compiled this list but it seems that nobody wanted to. If you feel that there is a valid comment that should be added to the list then please let me know and I will add it. Additionally, this might be a good chance for people to post about their personal experiences at particular schools, be they good or bad.

EF Shengyang � Question raised about a scandal (Bertrand), suggested by (Xiaoyu) that no such scandal existed based upon reports from friends who worked there.

Negative Experiences

EF Huizhou � No details (Bertrand), extensive details (Keath), (englishgibson)
EF Yiwu � No details (yvechina)
EF Nanchang � detailed post (bgreytalk)
EF Wuhan � detailed post (J9)
EF Wuhan (Hankou) � bad management (Chris Crossley)
EF Urumuqi � detailed post (tifanjo), (tom selleck)
EF Hangzhou � detailed post (Alani), (brsmith15)
EF Yuyao � gulam2
EF Zhuhai � balrog, darius

Good Experiences

EF Dalian � (deezy)
EF Hangzhou � detailed post (Noelle)
EF Hefei � third party report (Noelle)
EF Kunming � (no_exit), (deezy)
EF Pudong � (matador)
EF Qingdao � based on location (tw), (deezy)
EF Suzhou � third party report (Noelle)
EF Urumuqi � detailed report (CathB)
EF Weihai � (deezy)
EF Wuhan � detailed post (J9), (gulam2), (englishgibson)
EF Wuhan (Hankou) � good teaching experience (Chris Crossley)
EF Wuxi � third party report (Noelle), (babala)
EF Xi�an � third party report (Noelle)
EF Xiaoshan � detailed post (dreaming_saturn)
EF Zhuhai - positive comment by PM (Keath)

The most interesting thread of all was this one:

[Henry_Cowell]

Clark, this is truly an amazing project that you've undertaken!!

The only EF 'experience' that I have is training some teachers who had already completed contracts as EF instructors. Some had decent skills, but most of them came to us with the skills of a typical college student with average grammar knowledge. My impression (and it was only an impression) was that EF doesn't really take the time to work with inexperienced teachers to make them significantly better.

[clark.w.griswald]

Yes I would certainly agree that English First is far from the pinnacle of what a good English school should be. Sure, it is a good program for those who have never taught before as expectations are low - you do the hours, you get the pay. In most cases you know that you will be taken care of legally, and you know that you are very unlikely to get ripped off. Another plus would be that I believe the majority of centers are downtown, so teachers can develop and maintain an active social life. As such it can be a good starting point for newbies wanting to enter the teaching market in China.

The trade off is that the hour requirement is high for the pay rate offered. Another downside is that the teacher quality can be low in some places even to the degree of accepting teachers that should probably be studying the language rather than teaching it. Additionally anyone with teaching experience, or teaching qualifications, may find it difficult to take direction from a DOS who possibly knows less than the teachers working under them.

While I believe that the above are all valid comments about the school, I don't see them as being a reason that potential teachers should avoid the chain altogether. It seems to me that all of the above will be seen differently by different teachers, each of which will see different aspects as being positive or negative. I think that it is great that people talk of their experiences regarding the above, but I don't see that calls for all teachers to avoid all schools are valid.

For me I would consider that problems such as withheld pay, promised Z visas that never materialize, abusive treatment, cancelling of employment contracts prematurely without good reason etc. to be the sorts of problems that we should be warning teachers about. These problems are unlikely to be acceptable to any teacher, and from my own research I can see that these problems have been experienced in at least one EF school.

As I have been saying since one of my first posts on this subject, in my opinion information about specific schools is vital to ensuring that teachers avoid those schools while supporting the good ones in the chain. That in my opinion is the best way to improve the bad schools and encourage the good. I hope that others agree with this, and I hope that current or past teachers from EF will post about their experiences with particular schools.

[Babala]

Just for the record, I will second Noelle on the Wuxi EF. I knew quite a few of their teachers and they had positive comments to say about their school. This was about a year ago though, so I don't know if things have changed.

My ex-boyfriend actually attended EF. He wasn't pleased with the teaching materials and the instructor was constantly calling in sick and cancelling classes. He said he wouldn't go back.

[Chris_Crossley]

[Babala]

First off, why I called the teacher an instructor I have no idea. Let's put it down to the weather conditions outside

My ex enrolled in EF for 2 months. The classes were scheduled on Wednesday and Friday nights from 6.30 - 8.30pm. In this 2 month period, his classes were cancelled at least 4 times that I know of. In such a short time period, I would call this alot. I am not saying that all EF have this problem, I just thought since everyone is discussing EF that it may be interesting to give one student's opinion.

[Chris_Crossley]

[englishgibson]

Speaking of negative comments of teachers, they are not limited to “one or two centers”, are they? Teachers have commented on many EF centers in many locations of China.

Speaking of vague or personal comments according to Mr. Clark W Griswald, some teachers have made fairly clear reports on what happened in their respective EF centers and if that is not enough then my large reports on two EF centers in China and the EF Head Office in Shanghai shall give a clear understanding of the problem, shan’t they? If that is not enough, then the ones that do not believe those reports shall join one of their centers themselves.

Mr. Clark W Griswald, you have done YOUR search and I must say that quite a good one considering that “YOU JUST CAME ON THIS THREAD FROM PAGE SIX” as you have said. You have really looked for those positive EF posts AS HARD AS YOU COULD.

EF Quindao’s comment of tw “based on location” what does that mean? He’s never worked for an EF center.

With all due respect to Noelle and her short “few months” EF English First experience in China, I would say that that would not be enough to comment to such extend on so many EF centers in China, would it? Her Hangzhou’s comment: “If you love getting drunk and spending your days hangover come to EF Hangzhou!” is indeed “AS IN YOUR WORDS VAGUE and PERSONAL”, isn’t it?

With all due respect to Deezy and her hard work at one EF center where she hasn’t even finished her FIRST YEAR EF CONTRACT, she could not have gotten to know those many centers in such a short time so well, could she?

With regards to my negative posts about a few schools/EF Head Office that you quickly took off the negative list as well as Keath’s name on EF Huizhou and so on, it looks like you are ON A MISSION, aren’t you?

You’ve done your number with Noelle-EF Huizhou (never) and Chris Crossley EF Hangzhou (never) on YOUR EF LIST previously.

There is no room for manipulating the public opinion here. This is not a fight of who is wrong or who is right. This is a fight for the FOREIGN TEACHERS’ RIGHTS and for IMROVING THE WORKING ENVIRONMENT in the EF English First in China.

Many of us have had horrifying experiences with EF English First in China. Some of us have been intimidated and some threatened and that is how far this organization goes.

So Mr. Clark W Griswald, since you spend so much of your own time on this thread recently and since you have not replied to my inquiry whether you have worked for an EF center and we know only that you are “involved in Buxiban site”, ARE YOU TELLING US THAT YOU ARE PARTICIPATING HERE TO WRITE UP A POSITIVE AND A NEGATIVE EF LIST ONLY? If you have more EF experience than I, would you please share it?

Cheers and beers

[Noelle]

A good point made in the post above.

EG does seem to have more experience with EF whereas my experience was pretty limited. I guess I just hoped my positive comments would count for something on a forum where there seem to be so many complaints.

It would be nice to see more satisfied teachers participating here.

[clark.w.griswald]

Englishgibson I have invited you (and anyone else) to add information about specific schools that could be added to the list. You haven't done this so please stop complaining about that.

You seem to allude to this information being available, yet you haven't offered it. You even stated in a previous post that you would bring this information to everyones attention, but you never did this. I got sick of waiting for you to come through on your promise and therefore I did it myself. If you haven't offered certain information, then it can't be added to the list. If you don't want to take the time to prove your point and add information to the list then don't complain that it is not there.

Other posters have indicated that they are sick of the back and forth between us, and I can't blame them for this. I strongly suggest that you forget about who I am, and concentrate on arguing my posts, as your attempts at derailing the discussion are extremely transparent.