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In Defense of Eikaiwas
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nomadder



Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:04 pm    Post subject: In Defense of Eikaiwas Reply with quote

Especially for Newbies.

Most have heard all the negative things attributed to eikaiwas. You may have the impression they are asylums for drunkards, the over-travelled and over-sexed.

The truth is there are many types of eikaiwas from the big chain school to the small mom and pop style places. Obviously there are also a variety of teachers working at these schools too.

The plusses of the smaller places are often that you have total curriculum control and small classes. A good boss will treat you like a valued human and not a number. You won't just be a cog in the wheel.

So don't be put off eikaiwas. The students have to pay to be there so many will try as opposed to public school where English is inflicted upon them in an outdated program in a large class with lots of bureaucracy. University is just a vacation before work for most students.
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PAULH



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: In Defense of Eikaiwas Reply with quote

nomadder wrote:
EUniversity is just a vacation before work for most students.


Its obvious you have never worked in a university and dont know what university teachers do in their jobs.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything nomadder wrote. The only footnote I will make is in regard to this statement:
Quote:
The students have to pay to be there so many will try


Many does not necessarily mean most. Not only does the type of teacher vary, but so does the type of student. Eikaiwa is often a hobby for adult students, and you can easily run into people who are there only to socialize (with you or with other students), not to learn English seriously. Many only want to pick up a few words to use on overseas trips. Some are fairly high level and just want to chat so they can keep their ears and tongue in tune. Some are hunting for foreign boyfriends.

And, eikaiwas do not always cater only to adult students. Children go to eikaiwa, too, and they do not pay (their parents do). You may find them as young as babies or as old as college students. Some don't want to be there, just like in their mainstream school classes, or in the case of infants, they don't want to be there to study but to play.
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nomadder



Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irregardless of the teacher (prof), the attitude of uni students is well known in Japan.
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PAULH



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomadder wrote:
Irregardless of the teacher (prof), the attitude of uni students is well known in Japan.


That may be so with club activities and arubaito to compete with. But that doesnt mean students dont have to do any work while they are at school. Students who dont keep failing until they pass the course (Im only talking about English classes here, I regularly fail students)

In my class if students miss more than 5 classes in a semester they lose the credit and have to repeat the course.

You are also forgetting that now many graduates leave school and can not find a job and students know this. Its not much of a vacation when you are unemployed and students in their last year will do whatever it takes to find a job after graduation. The purpose of a university education is different than in the west so you are imposing western/American values on Japanese universities. For American students university can be a four-year vacation too.
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nomadder



Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the purpose?

From what I've heard the hard work is in HS. For me university was much harder than HS and I took 2 different degrees.

I'm also not sure what you mean by Western/American values. Is America not Western or....?
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PAULH



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomadder wrote:
What is the purpose?

From what I've heard the hard work is in HS. For me university was much harder than HS and I took 2 different degrees.

I'm also not sure what you mean by Western/American values. Is America not Western or....?


Generally speaking, the reason people go to university in western countries is not only to get an education but it is so they can get a qualification or a certain body of skill they can offer employers e.g. a law degree, a medical degree. they study for a professional qualification. In japan just because one studies law it doesnt mean you can automatically become a lawyer or "bengoshi".

Anyone can get into a university if they want to or have the money, but you must be able to do the course work if you want to graduate. So there is not so much pressure at high school, unless you want to get into a good school or enter a competitive faculty such as Law or business or medical school.

In Japan the gatekeeper was the university entrance exam, and competition in japan is at the high school level to get into a university. Dont pass the entrance exam you dont get in. Dont graduate from the right university and you don't get a job.

Employers don't care what you study in Japan, just what school you went to and the fact you graduate. That is now changing with a fall in student numbers, competition by schools for students, and the fact that students are now not allowed to say what schools they went to on job applications.

The reason that you went to university and the reason a japanese student goes to university are DIFFERENT. They go to university to get into a company on graduation, where the employer will train them. You go to university with training and qualifications in your hand, ready to offer an employer. the function and role of university here are different, and you are assuming that students here want and expect the same things you wanted when you were at university.

By western i mean American, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand universities, with their emphasis on hard work,scholarship and performance during university.

In Japan students dont need to work hard to pass a course, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt make them sweat for their grade.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For once I actually agree with Paulh.
A western employer, in theory expects to make money out of an employee from day one. They do this because in their opinion training a staff member is not so profitable as many western emloyees job hop for much of their career. Most western cultures value the individual.
A japanese company in generally takes a graduate and spends a lot of money and time training them, eventually even the most incompetent employee will become competent at their particular job, and that employee will likely be with that company for life. Japan is a culture of groups.
This explains why westerners don't fit well into Japanese companies, they are seen as not team players and can be refered to as selfish. On the other hand many westerners complain at working with Japanese as they find them useless at preforming any task. This is because university has not prepared them for the job, they are waiting for company training that is not coming to them in the west. They are also reluctant to take a lead or take responsibility as this is not a characteristic of a group.
Strangely enough both systems have been proven to work.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
that employee will likely be with that company for life.

That concept has been on the decline in recent years, and many middle managers are on the street.
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PAULH



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that national universities have been privatised, university teachers that once worked until their retirement are now having to reapply for their jobs after 4 or 5 years, and universities are now getting rid of a lot of deadweight by offering teachers limited contracts instead of tenure. This is happening to native Japanese teachers, not just foreigners.

Life time employment at big companies is a thing of the past, and has been since the bubble economy imploded, and several big Japanese companies have gone under because of massive debts and insolvency.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That concept has been on the decline in recent years, and many middle managers are on the street.


Quote:
Life time employment at big companies is a thing of the past, and has been since the bubble economy imploded, and several big Japanese companies have gone under because of massive debts and insolvency.


Yes but it is still a world of difference compared to a country like America where many top executives sign a one year contract that is only renewed if profits rise.
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PAULH



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

malcoml wrote:
Quote:
That concept has been on the decline in recent years, and many middle managers are on the street.


Quote:
Life time employment at big companies is a thing of the past, and has been since the bubble economy imploded, and several big Japanese companies have gone under because of massive debts and insolvency.


Yes but it is still a world of difference compared to a country like America where many top executives sign a one year contract that is only renewed if profits rise.


I wont argue with you there, but the CEOs and execs you are talking about are on income packages often 40 times what CEOS in Japan make. they vote themselves golden parachutes even if the share price tumbles during their tenure. Either that or they loot the company.

Im talking about the "kachos" and buchos who dont rise about middle management who suddenly find at 50 they are being shown the door, with kids in university and college fees and a mortgage on a depreciating shoebox of a house in the suburbs. The greatest number of suicides in Japan (30,000 a year or about 52 a day) is young people and middle-aged men between 45 and 55 years of age

http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/9/3/284-a


Last edited by PAULH on Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wont argue with you there, but the CEOs and execs you are talking about are on income packages often 40 times what CEOS in Japan make. they vote themselves golden parachutes even if the share price tumbles during their tenure. Either that or they loot the company.

Let's not forget, too, that many top Japanese execs can resign or be "fired", yet still remain on the board of directors and collect fat salaries.
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PAULH



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:

Let's not forget, too, that many top Japanese execs can resign or be "fired", yet still remain on the board of directors and collect fat salaries.



Now that you mention it, "amakudari" where ex-public corporation officials 'parachute' into lucrative private sector jobs in companies they used to regulate. Japan Highway corporation is now in deep doo-doo because of bid-rigging.
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OaklandZoo



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is going off-topic, but exactly what Glenski describe happened at Seiyu just the other day when the CEO resigned because of the company's poor performance, yet still staying with the board of directors. It's not going to convince anyboy when he says he had to be responsible for the sub-par performance, if he's still with the company collecting a load of money.
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