Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

That FT who made his primary school student act the part of a dog was trespassing and putting himself in a very tight spot: the student was humiliated in a way he will associate with how FTs reform their students - and that's not going to help our reputation!

The FT acted much in the way of those "interrogators" at GItmo/ Guantanamo Bay, who use dogs to intimidate and humiliate their prisoners.
A rather questionable method!

It is better to give up on such students - something I had had to do on occasion. Don't forget in this country students have more clout over teachers than the other way around!

[kev7161]

[englishgibson]

[gulam2]

latefordinner

Silence is golden.
I have found silence is a very good tool.
They are paying for my voice.
I have a number of bad classes, when they get too bad I just shut-up and it usually works.
One time recently I did throw a student out of the class (not a good idea in a private school - money). A chinese teacher brought the student back in (my credibility - gone) so I went silent. After about three minutes the teacher asked "why are you not speaking?". I replied "I did not give permission for this student to come back in". The teacher took the student back out (who then went home) ---- But I had made an enemy of the teacher - not too smart a move really.
I teach Saturday and Sunday(during semester time) kids who have already been at school the rest of the week. Today there are hundreds of kids outside who have had three days summer holidays and now start there summer school.
Motivated - you must be kidding.
But its all teaching and it is NOT the kids' fault

[Roger]

I agree wholeheartedly in saying that some schools have rather contradictory rules that make your job more difficult than is absolutely necessary.
I too faced this nonsensical ban on student expulsions from my classes; I don't understand where this comes from but I imagine our Chinese superiors feel we are too little adapted to Chinese school life and we shouldn't challenge their rules.
Chinese teachers have a pretty limited array of measures at their disposal too - let's not forget the students in the 1970s put the teachers in a lower station, and that has stuck to this day.
But some Chinese teachers resort to violent means. Slapping is not uncommon, extra homeowkr is almost the norm and giving bad reports back to their parents is a formidable punishment too.

But in affluent communities parents have the last word, and if their kids report negatively on their teachers then these teachers are in for some humiliation. In Guangdong parents are so wealthy they put pressure on principals to admit their miscreant and spoilt sons, and they have the upper hand.

There is another side to the story: these students only get a very limited exposure to you, and thus rapport between you and them doesn't progress to the same level as rapport between Chinese teachers and their students does. Besides, we are foreign bodies from an alien, ideologically inimical part of the world. This helps lower their respect for us in some cases, especially in provincial and city-owned elite schools.

One of my more traumatising experiences was with 14-year olds studying in a primary school affiliated with the Guangdong University of Foreign Studies. While the university is widely seen as a top notch tertiary institution chruning out excellent interpreters (I met some whose French, Italian and German was almost native-speaker like!), this primary school attracted the province's most pampered, pathetically lazy and troublesome young learners. In at least one of my 6 classes there would always be mayhem every Thursday, and Friday classes were permanently intolerable because they knew their parents would come that afternoon to pick them up and drive them home to as far as Zhanjiang!

Interestingly, I had some astounding success in terms of cooperation and discipline improvement when I allowed students to leave early provided they had done a task silently.
Unfortunately, I was given a knocback: no one was allowed to leave class before the bell chimed!

[englishgibson]

[quote="Roger"]
But in affluent communities parents have the last word, and if their kids report negatively on their teachers then these teachers are in for some humiliation. In Guangdong parents are so wealthy they put pressure on principals to admit their miscreant and spoilt sons, and they have the upper hand.

There is another side to the story: these students only get a very limited exposure to you, and thus rapport between you and them doesn't progress to the same level as rapport between Chinese teachers and their students does. Besides, we are foreign bodies from an alien, ideologically inimical part of the world. This helps lower their respect for us in some cases, especially in provincial and city-owned elite schools.
quote]

Roger, this is very true. I've experienced this. I've tried to find ways and connections between the students, their parents, the schools' principles/center managers and the academic staff (especially that foreign). Parents meetings helped to certain extend, but I found the "translators" were not "honest enough" at (crucial) times.

This is definitely a continuous uphill battle. In my opinion, if the parent-student-school connection is found, we will have reached that top of the hill.

Cheers and beers

[kev7161]

In the school district I was in back in the states, every quarter we had "parent-teacher conferences". Students were excused for two days and parents were to schedule an appointment with the teacher to discuss classroom behaviors, grades, problems, accomplishments, etc.

Was this the only time we connected with parents? Not at all. If a student was absent, a parent would get a call. If there was any kind of discipline procedure, it was written down and filed away. If it was a severe problem, parents are notified. When there were field trips, notes were sent home to get parents permission via signature. If homework or tests were completed poorly, the paper was sent home to get a parent's signature on it. Most schools in the past several years now have websites where parents can log onto and check out their child's progress. They can email teachers as well if they have questions or concerns. We had parent/student nights where students showed off school work projects, art exhibits, or performances. PTA was integral (if not pushy sometimes) and members would usually take care of certain holiday parties and weekend events.

If I was dismayed by certain aspects of the educational life back home, I did enjoy the fact that if a child got out of hand or was performing poorly, I could turn to the parents for advice or support (of course there were the parents that thought their child was "golden" and wouldn't believe a single negative thing said about their beloved).

[dalong]

Well, aren't I the lucky one? You are not allowed to throw them out of the classroom; if you yell or shout, they laugh at you; if you try to deal with it with a bit of humour, they think you're soft and play up even worse. (I'm talking about middle school.)

So, what do I do? After a couple of warnings, I whack them over the back of the head - sometimes quite hard, depending on who it is.

As a result, most of the kids understand what I'm about (that is, even if some of their parents and teachers don't think respect is due to a foreigner, I demand it from them) and I am complimented by the school for being strict on the students.

Either way, I would (could) never put up with some youngster, more than 20 years my junior, having a disrespectful attitude. (And, yes, I say this from a Western perspective - if they want foreign teachers, then foreign concepts of respect and discipline come with the package as far as I'm concerned.) So, even if it meant causing trouble (at worst, losing my job), I would not give up this method of keeping the little *beep* under control.

By the way, I should add that I am, in fact, quite popular with my students.

[englishgibson]

[dalong]

OK, but we have all stepped too far out of line in the past and copped a whack for it. It did more good than harm for most of us.

Sometimes, after all else has failed, the shocking reality of a good whack across the back of the head will bring a kid back into line.

[kev7161]

I don't know if Dalong is being serious or sarcastic (yanking our chain) - - if the former, then I'm in complete disagreement with his discipline "method". Yes, students can get out of hand and yes, I've had to clench my fist a time or two in frustration or anger. But, in my opinion, if it gets so bad that I'm just a second away from striking a child - - no matter how rude or surly he may be - - then it's time for me to leave the classroom or, regardless of the rules, escort the student out (perhaps directly to the principal's office).

[frigginhippie]

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

[clarrie]

I walked out of a class near the end of this semester given the behaviour of one student and the complicit behaviour of the rest of the class. It started because a girl was essentially abusive when I asked for her name/or number for unaccpetable behaviour - this is obviously a somewhat shortened version - and not one person in the class would tell me her name or number. Told the class I would leave if I did not get the information I requested and that they could find me when they wanted to tell me. I left and was immediately followed by the student and a representative bunch lecturing me about MY responibilities as a teacher!!!!

Anyway, given that I had left the classroom and I had a duty of care/responsibility to be there it was necessary to write a report on the incident to 'cover' myself, which I did and duely forwarded it to all 'n' sundry. In fact I could by process of cross-checking identify the student concerned and name her, but I decided not to.

Got a note under my door later in the day from the student saying I should not be angry and that I really needed to have a good night's sleep!!!

Was asked by a dean quite a while after the event who the student was. I told the dean I knew the student's name, but to tell her the name would mean that there would be a gentle tap on the student's shoulder and she would be told, quietly, not to upset the crazy foreign teacher! By not telling her the name it meant that someone had to try to identify the student and that meant asking questions, etc., etc., which would give loss of face. What 'hurt' more than anything was when I told the dean that I was now able to say that in all my years of teaching in secondary schools and various language schools/centres around the place, I am now able to say that the rudest, most disrespectful student I have ever had the misfortune to interact with is a Chinese student, in China. Ouch that hurt and it's one worth using!

We're talking about a university here, not a primary school!

Students in China have so much sway over a teacher's retention, bonus and long-term prospects that they figure they can do as they please with foreign teachers!
Asked the girl when she tried to apologise to me whether or not she would behave the same with a Chinese teacher and she did not answer!

Sometimes a teacher has got to do what a teacher has got to do!

Just rambling really!

[tw]