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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: Segregation or Apartheid in Taiwan |
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I was thinking about that previous thread on foreign workers rioting and thought about the segregation in Taiwan based on skin colour, ethinicity and language.
I've spoken with a lot of immigrant workers in Taipei, mainly from the Philippines. They speak fluent English. It's too bad they mostly get jobs as nannies or constructino workers.
It seems that these non-white immigrants, even though they come from an English-speaking country, are not wanted as teachers of English.
The Taiwanese will hire a blonde-haired, 23 year old Canadian girl with a fake/photoshopped degree over a qualified Indian or Filipino teacher.
More evidence that this is a screwed up world we live in. |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:17 am Post subject: |
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It seems that these non-white immigrants, even though they come from an English-speaking country, are not wanted as teachers of English.
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To be an English teacher, you must come from a "native English speaking" country. If you come from the US and are of Filipino descent with a bachelor's degree, then you qualify to be a teacher here.
If you are a German 23-year-old blond with fluent English and a degree, you do not qualify to be an English teacher.
It is not an issue of skin colour.
If you know some teachers are working illegally on fake degrees, and you feel this is unfair, I agree. Please report them to the CLA. They will thank you for spotting their oversight and will deal with it. You will have done your bit to ensure Taiwan is not unfairly descriminating against the truely qualified. |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:38 am Post subject: |
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If you are a German 23-year-old blond with fluent English and a degree, you do not qualify to be an English teacher.
It is not an issue of skin colour. |
That's how I understand the Taiwanese Government's policy as well.
I know this Canadian guy from Quebec. English is his L2. He speaks with a fairly thick French accent and sometimes makes mistakes when he speaks English.
Anyways, Robert comes from a "Native-speaking country" and holds a Canadian passport.
My question is, if Robert can teach English leagally on Taiwan, why can't an Indian or Filipino?
The Taiwanese government prefers non-qualified speakers from these
"Native-speaking" countries over more qualified speakers of English with dark skin.
If policies aren't designed to discriminate against peopel based on their ethnicity and accent, etc, then why do Australians, Blacks, Filipinos and Indians, as well as people of Asian descent, have such a hard time teaching English on Taiwan? |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
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The problem you are rightly highlighting is that just because you come from a native English speaking country it doesn't mean your English is good, or specifically good enough to teach it.
This isn't a skin colour issue, it's a practical one. The government made a very general rule that is not perfect. If someone comes from country A, they were able to function in that environment as a native speaker of English. That'll do.
I know plenty of people back home of a variety of colours and creeds who were born there, yet their English ability would stop me hiring them. I know plenty of Europeans who speak English beautifully. The reality is that the government do not do an oral or written English test as a part of the requirements to teach here, and they don't do this because it's (financially) unworkable. |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| If policies aren't designed to discriminate against peopel based on their ethnicity and accent, etc, then why do Australians, Blacks, Filipinos and Indians, as well as people of Asian descent, have such a hard time teaching English on Taiwan? |
Hmm. I know several Australians who teach here. No problem, so long as they have a degree.
Blacks? If you mean African Americans, they also qualify with a degree. Africans do not.
You can add to your list the following:
Swiss, Austrians, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Danish... and any other potentially blond haired, blue eyed nationals. These nationals are also not allowed to work here because they are not native speakers. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Well said Chris.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| I know this Canadian guy from Quebec. English is his L2. He speaks with a fairly thick French accent and sometimes makes mistakes when he speaks English. |
This is certainly the only flaw that I can see in the governments policy. French speaking Canadians are certainly the exception when it comes to people from an 'English speaking country' who shouldn't qualify to be English teachers here.
I don't believe that the governments criteria is meant to be the be all and end all as far as teacher recruitment. We all know of new citizens of English speaking countries who are unable to speak English, despite the fact that they meet the Taiwan government requirements.
In these cases it is really up to schools to say wait a minute these guys are not up to the level that we require for being an English teacher. Sure some schools may not be able to discern this, and some teachers may slip through the cracks, but this is not something that can be legislated against.
Can you imagine the outcry if the government instituted an English test for foreign teachers in Taiwan? Sure it might help to weed out some applicants who otherwise slip under the net, but I think that such a practice would be pretty pointless as 99% of teachers would pass right through.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| My question is, if Robert can teach English leagally on Taiwan, why can't an Indian or Filipino? |
Because Robert is a Canadian, and Canada is deemed to be an English speaking country. India and the Philippines are not.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| The Taiwanese government prefers non-qualified speakers from these "Native-speaking" countries over more qualified speakers of English with dark skin. |
You are barking up the wrong tree as far as suggesting that the government has a stance on skin color. The government does not discriminate against skin color when it comes to the recruitment of teachers, it is the schools that discriminate in this regard.
The possibility of becoming a legal English teacher here in Taiwan is based upon nationality not skin color.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| If policies aren't designed to discriminate against peopel based on their ethnicity and accent, etc, then why do Australians, Blacks, Filipinos and Indians, as well as people of Asian descent, have such a hard time teaching English on Taiwan? |
There are no government policies that I am aware of that discriminate against foreign teachers based upon their accent. All comers from the designated native English speaking countries qualify for legal employment under the governments regulations, provided that they meet the education requirements.
When it comes to a preference for 'American accents', non-asian looking, no blacks etc, that is not government policy, that is school preference. |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, it seems that Australians have a tough time finding work here.
I've read a few editorials in the newspapers from Australians complaining about schools discriminating against them.
Even though the schools discriminate against them, the government has no laws in place to prevent schools from discriminating against certain people.
Same with Blacks, Indians, Filipinos, etc.
It seems that there are Filipino professors in some of the universities teaching English but I don't know how that can be.
Filipinos don't come from 'native-spaking' countries, do they?
Or are Filipinos "native-speakers."
Does anyone know how the government defines "Native-speaker?"
Also, there are professors from South America and Italy teaching English in universities on Taiwan - how could this be, unless South American countries and Italy are "native-speaking" countries.
Seems to me these policies are linked to ethnicity and race than with linguistics.
Dark-skinned Filipinos and Indians can work as nannies, construction workers and in restuarants.
White-skinned kids from the U.S. and Canada get to teach English.
I talked with a guy in the gym from California, and he was Chinese American. He said that overseas Chinese are "tolerated" but that many schools want to offer him less than white-skinned teachers.
Another guy I talked to from Michigan (white-skinned) tole me that they had an open-house at HESS and the boss had the Candian-Chinese teachers go home for the open-house but kept only the white-skinned teachers around.
I aksed him how the Canadian-Chinese teachers felt about that. He said they didn't seem to mind, they were just happy to go home - LOL!!!
Anyways, It's pretty clear that there is a system in place that perpetuates this 'white supremist' or racist ideals.
I think this 'native-speaker' concept is the wrong way of looking at it. It's based on a biological reasons. The policies instead should be based on linguistic reasons.
Come to think of it, Philippines, Singapore and India are "English-speaking countries." |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Miyazaki. Your post seems a bit strange.
Native English speaking countrys = the country's main language is English. The Philippines, therefore, is out as their main language is Tagalog derived.
There are professors in universities here from all over the world. No Doubt, they teach in their own specialist areas (not English). They may use English as a base language to teach with.
Your target for racism seems to have been re-directed now, from the government to schools in general. Once you are talking about the general public I think you will find racism in various forms in all countries, bar non. You'll be able to find race related news stories for your own country if you do a search. |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi Chris,
Yeah, I guess I rambled a bit. LOL!!
No, I 've met a Filipino English University English teacher in Taipei and also read an article published by another Filipino University English teacher in Taiwan.
I also know one guy who is from Argentina who is not a 'native-speaker' and yet he teaches English at a university in Taipei.
Philippines - English as an 'official language' and is used as the primary medium for teaching in public schools.
I still think Taiwan is racist in itls policies and laws regarding ELT on teh island and that dark-skinned people are only brought in to do the jobs that Taiwanese refuse to do. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Yeah, it seems that Australians have a tough time finding work here. |
I am afraid that I do not agree with this. There are plenty of Australians here and they don't have any more trouble than anyone else finding work. A very small percentage of job vacancies will stipulate 'American accent' preferred, but there are plenty of alternative positions around.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Even though the schools discriminate against them, the government has no laws in place to prevent schools from discriminating against certain people. |
That is not correct. The Employment Laws in Taiwan very clearly state that racism is not acceptable. Racism is a difficult problem to prove beyond doubt, and in most western countries our efforts to eradicate racism have resulted in reverse racism. There are clear laws here, and anyone who feels that they can prove a case of racism should probably take the matter up with the authorities.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| It seems that there are Filipino professors in some of the universities teaching English but I don't know how that can be. |
I agree with Chris. Just because a teacher is a foreigner doesn't automatically mean that they are an English teacher. They could be teaching another language or they could be teaching other subject matter entirely either through the medium of English or Chinese, or even possibly their own language.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Does anyone know how the government defines "Native-speaker?" |
By this I assume that you mean native English speakers!
The government considers that nationals from the US , UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, and South Africa are native English speakers. So if you hold a passport from one of these countries then you are considered to be from an English speaking country.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Also, there are professors from South America and Italy teaching English in universities on Taiwan - how could this be, unless South American countries and Italy are "native-speaking" countries. |
Again, it is unlikely that they have been employed as English teachers, but more likely teachers of other subjects. They could possibly be teaching some English classes, especially if these classes relate to the teaching of specific English related to the subject matter that they are a lecturer in.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Dark-skinned Filipinos and Indians can work as nannies, construction workers and in restuarants. |
This is misleading.
Filipinos and Indians can work in any profession they like in Taiwan provided that they qualify for employment in these professions. For example, a specialist in some field that Taiwan needs could easily obtain a permit to work here based solely upon that persons skills, and not at all based upon race. If that person happened to be Indian or Filipino it would make no lick of a difference.
Any national from any country in the world (except for possibly China) could get a legal job in Taiwan if they could prove that a local could not do the job. This is effectively what foreign English teachers do. We largely get the jobs because we speak English fluently, which is something that not enough locals can do. I think that you are looking at things in the wrong way. Having the right to work here is a priviledge not a right, and we are lucky that we qualify. This does not mean that the government is being racist against people who don't qualify.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| I talked with a guy in the gym from California, and he was Chinese American. He said that overseas Chinese are "tolerated" but that many schools want to offer him less than white-skinned teachers. |
As I mentioned earlier this is a school based phenomenon and has nothing to do with the government.
Personally, I think that schools are foolish to hire only caucasian applicants based upon their appearance, and this is possibly why some schools encounter so many problems with teachers. It is not that us whities are trouble makers, but it just means that the schools judgement is clouded when it comes to the hiring process.
Having said that schools are businesses, and I respect the right of the business owner to choose the teachers that the school knows will pull in the most fee paying students. If the market demands white teachers then I won't fault the schools for seeking teachers that meet the demands of their students.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| I think this 'native-speaker' concept is the wrong way of looking at it. It's based on a biological reasons. The policies instead should be based on linguistic reasons. |
Could you explain how you feel the system could be improved if it were 'based upon linguistic reasons'? How exactly do you see that working? |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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As a non-North American I have found many instances of schools in Taiwan refuses to hire me because of this fact. "Sorry, we are an American school", etc, etc. But then again, I would rather not work for any school that would state 'North American' as a requirement above things like qualifications and experience. There are plenty of schools like that here. There are also plenty of schools who don't care either way as long as I am 'legal' as well as many schools who don't care so long as I show up to class and pretend to teach when I'm supposed to.
Gender is another issue that schools prefer to hire by and may state one way or another according to whatever logic the director employs. |
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