Job Discussion Forums

[Yahnena]

For ESL (or other language teachers) is it illegal to freelance in China and if so, why?

Are there differences between provinces?

Thanks for your input.

Cheers

[Roger]

Yanena,
doin't put on that dunce cap. YOu came across as pretty greedy before; there is not legal and moral justification for ripping Chinese off in a private nature.

You are a foreigner, and foreigners must get a VISA to cross the border into China. The visa is issued only to those who meet strict criteria. The first consideration is: can you afford to live in China at your own expense? Then you qualify for a tourist visa. This is a consideration identical to those in place anywhere else. IF CHinese wnat to visit a European country that country's legal representative, i.e. the embassy or consulate, will satisfy itself that this CHinese visa applicant will have enough funds to live comfortably as a guest, and return at his own expense.

You may claim all of this doesn't apply to you since you are a "teacher". I doubt you are a teacher, but then again, you may qualify for a job that's described as an English teaching position.

And here is the rub for you: you are only accepted as "teacher" if you meet the expectations of your hirer, and he in turn must guarantee for you to the authorities, which is totally analogous to what Westerners might be asked to do in order to have a friend from a poor country such as CHina visit them.

THis is why the visa your employer will apply for - or you if you were in your home country, holding an official invitation from your would-be employer - must be of the work visa type, i.e. an 'F' or an 'Z' visa, nothing else, and in either case tieing you to your employer for the duration of your employment and the visa's validity.

I told you in that other thread that freelancing is not covered by the relevant laws in China because in socialist China "freelancing" is a totally new concept. But foreigners working in China is a concept that's been defined in legal terms that no one can question.
Most contracts are EXPLICIT on this point: no extra work is allowed. You want a rationale? Why? Why can't you accept the rules as they are laid down?
Yes, there are reasons, of course there are.
One is that you would forfeit any insurance cover. What if you are the victim of a fatal traffic accident during your illegal work performance?

Second: your employer alone has the right to dispose of your time - minus your legitimate needs such as rest and recration. You may find this to be beneath your dignity but half a billion CHinese think nothing about it, so why should you? Yes, they often cheat on their employers, and so do many F^Ts. But cheating and getting away with it DOESN'T MAKE IT ONE JOTA LEGAL.

Three: we might ask you rhetorically: what is in it for CHina if people like you make money off the gullible masses that are silly enough to hire a white face? Do you return anything back to your host society? What would that be? Taxes?

FOurth: maybe in your own country education is not taken seriously, but in my country, and in this one, it is. This means that whoever undertakes the furthering of "education" in whatever form must comply with certain requirements set by relevant authorities. A private training centre has to meet criteria set by education bureaux, so why should a "teacher" be above the law that applies to established businesses??? In the case of foreign freelancers I feel control is absolutely and imperatively needed, judging by the number of threads enquiring about the fall-out from "pulling a runner".
Most, nay, make that ALL of these mercenary "teachers" are not professionals, and pray do tell me: what is in it for the paying public who do not know your legal situation? They would no doubt be fleeced by "freelancers".

Last but not least: if your country bans foreign visitors from teaching or making money in an itinerant but semi-professional manner why should not CHina ban YOU?
Have you ever heard of Chinese II's? What happens to them when they are found out? The same should be reserved for you.

[virago]

Nope, no freelancing in China. The rules say you have to have an invite from a Chinese business to be a teacher in China. The invite is used to obtain your visa and work permit. No exceptions.

Unless you are a long term resident in China (or invested $1/2 million) then you can obtain a D visa (Long term resident) then you could probably freelance.

[Yahnena]

so what you are saying is that the literally hundreds of freelancing jobs in china that are offered openly on the web (with addresses, phone numbers and all) for ESL teachers are all illegal??
wouldn't these employers risk of getting in trouble with the authorities?

i am confused.

cheers

[Roger]

Yes, you are confused, matey! I don't know what jobs you were refgerring to, but "freelancing" essentially implies you are working NOT on the payroll of someone but on your own. What kind of jobs do you see that qualify as "freelancing"? You mean corporate customers that are looking for foreign teachers?

THis happens occasionally but in practice you are not going to be a freelancer; rather you have to submit your credentials to them as though they were a school; they will then book some lessons with you and pay you.

You don't seem to understand, however, that they are your paymasters. You have to fulfill their expectations - i.e. be a blue-eyed, blonde-haired hunk, speak their ideao of good ENglish and comply with their house rules. You are also totally unprotected and very often you are out of your job before you are planning on their next lesson.

Now for the last time: use your commonsense and think a little harder: would any country in the world allow foreign nationals to roam their labour market without giving any dues in return? WOuld any country allow foreigners to make more money than locals without provoking the wrath of their own people? They have to protect their own jobseekers first, and methinks they should do just that!

There willprobably for several more uyears be sideline jobs for FTs, but it is a wise FT who puts a foundation under his bum by getting a regular job before he peddles his services to such hirers. I remember only two employers who refused to allow FTs to work on the side.

[jimoin]

Roger, that response was a bit over the top. How exactly are you arguing that Chinese are being ripped off by a freelancing foreign teacher but not if the same teacher is working for a private company legally? You can argue about the legality all you like, but the fact is a freelancer is only providing the same service they do at a Chinese school privately. It's actually one of China's least well kept secrets that teachers almost invariably privately tutor to supplement their incomes. Just like it's not exactly unknown that authorities turn a blind eye to countless illegal knock-offs, from DVDs to clothing brands. This is a big part of the Chinese culture - one set of formal rules, and then the rules that everyone really follows. Everyone pays lip service to the formal rules, while no one takes them seriously.

It is insulting for you to insinuate that white foreign english teachers can only teach well if working for some corrupt, non-english speaking unscrupulous Chinese boss. It is the same bosses who are hiring white people to teach english in their schools regardless of their qualifications, whilst turning down people of other races purely because of their appearance. More than anything else this is what I've found in China - they care far more about style than substance. Perhaps due to low education levels, people here are very superficial.

So you can complain about the legality private teaching all you like, but it is hypocritical not to acknowledge that in China it is widely accepted and authorities turn a blind eye to it.

[cj750]

Wheither legal or not..free wheeling your way round a city with several positions is a way to make a good paycheck...and forget what the ESL cops drone on about... the most money I made in China was during the SARS period when I worked at three schools..and was bankin some coin..which made furture investing in China a reality...and I have had friends to make deals with schools to work a half year and receive a visa for a full year...leaving them free to "freelance"..now this is not legal and with all illegal activities ..you run the risk of detection..and even some FTs..as evident by postings on this site...would love to drop a dime on ya..
The problems you may incounter...forget about what was said about ins. coverage...most schools will cover you from there own funds so even with a contracted school there may be a problem in this matter.(take responsibility for yourself and buy your own ins.).the real problem is PSB interference, as the school may not have paid for protection..most schools doing this type of freelance hiring are not or just quasi legal...the 2nd. would be to get paid on a weekly basis so as not to obligate yourself ...retaining the power ....to pull the plug if need be...3rd..balance jobs so that you are not increasing you exposure time...take several jobs over just one...this will give you move "wiggle room" incase you lose one of the gigs...or you have to change work for whatever reason..many of the free lancers in Beijng are doing much better than the FTs and this will bring resentment in the form of "bending your ear with morals banter" but in Beijing many folks work on no contract and on F visa for schools that are not fully lic. and for the time being ..you can likely get away with it..but the "times, they are a changing" and sooner or later..these kinds of opportunities well peter out...

[Roger]

[cj750]

Would not moonlighting (extra income) fall into the same area of working in a third-world country illegally and should be given the same treatment or should only this kind of action performed by self proclaimed "old hands" be pardoned and how fair would it be under these guidelines to offer other students services at an alternative school...when they contract another school to obtain your services...many would call this unscrupulous...

[jimoin]

So Roger you're calling me a racist for criticising Chinese bosses who will only accept white foreign english teachers regardless of their qualifications, rather than a well qualified Asian American or Arab American? In case you haven't noticed it is the Chinese employers and perhaps their clients who I am calling racist and superficial for only accepting a white face as a foreign english teacher. I don't know where you get off on calling me racist against whites for saying so - people who are well qualified should work as english teachers, regardless of the colour of their skin.

I never said all Chinese bosses are racist and unscrupulous. But the evidence shows a lot of them are, and certainly it is the case so far in my experience.

You seem to be saying anyone who doesn't regard the laws regarding freelancing being illegal must therefore also not have any regard for students' learning. There is no logical reason to say that if you are one you must therefore be the other. There are plenty of foreign teachers who work for a Chinese school they hate and put little to no effort into their work. Conversely you would think most who freelancers would be hoping to do well out of working for themselves and as such would want to build up a loyal customer base through quality service. Without Chinese bosses who likely do not even know anything about english let alone teaching it telling them what to do, foreign teachers can get on with the task of teaching as best they know how.

I know for a fact that private schools like New Century deliberately never fail students and always give them good marks just to make the parents happy to have them continue studying there. Actually just about everything at such schools revolves around the parents' opinions, regardless of whether or not it is good for the learning of the children. Money is the driving factor, not quality education. And foreigners are forced to go along with this - Chinese private schools would make them work as dancing clowns if this is what the parents wanted. On the other hand most westerners believe this is not a good way to teach and I'm sure would teach in the best way they know how if freelancing.

I'm also sure many foreigners may come here to China to make a quick buck, REGARDLESS of whether they freelance or work for a school. It's up to the discerning customer to figure out about the quality of their teaching. But it is a ridiculous notion for you to argue that an unqualified teacher is somehow a better teacher if they work for a school rather than freelancing. It is just as bad either way!

As far as 'cheating' the Chinese people goes, I'm not sure about other countries but Australia has an agreement with China whereby workers here don't have to pay tax for the first 2 years anyway. So that argument of yours goes straight out the window. Anyway you're ignoring the fact that any freelancers are still living in China and with their large disposable incomes are undoubtedly helping the economy.

You can decry freelancers all you like, but as I said it is a widely accepted thing in Chinese culture. Just as also here no one follows the official road rules, bribery and corruption is rife as is the so called 'illegal' practice of prostitution.

With your staunch defence of Chinese bosses and over-the-top outbursts against freelancers, I can only assume that you are posting on this site opinions that have been paid for by a Chinese school.

[Yahnena]

jimoin: way to go, i'm 100% with you.

just for the record, on August 26th, roger has admitted on another thread called Guangzhou Puiching/Peizheng Commercial College "I am freelancing myself, but ....." what a hypocrite.

let me add an input about racism in china: accroding to ILO (the International Labour Organizagion) of which china has ratified not less than over 20 conventions! the discrimination of race is illegal. however it is all too common in china.
in any western country, a job advertisement for instance, that publically discriminates against race (like: white FT 6000 RMB/month, african teacher 3500-4000/month) would be illegal and pursued by the authorities. in china this phenomenon is just every day business.

quality: in many schools FT are nothing more than 'dancing clowns' and i agree 100% with you that a freelancer can and will do a much better teaching job, for all the obvious reasons you mentioned. besides that as a freelancer the FT can focus on her/his special field, K classes, ECE, young learners, adults, IELTS, business and legal english, exam preparation in general, corporate training, etc. all too often, when the FT has signed with a private school, let's say a K-12, all of a sudden s/he is rented out to a university or business classes, and vice versa, because the school itself doesn't have enough work for him. then s/he becomes a 'white slave' being rented out all over town like a machine. if you work for a placement company, like manpower for instance, that's a different story; you know what you're in for and usually employers work with them for a while to get a feel for the job market. if you have signed with
o n e employer, that's a whole different story. besides, how many schools compensate for all the traveling time you suddenly have to put up with? usually, they stick to the contract (now that's in the employer's interest) and the FT gets only payed for teaching time.

one more question: if it is possible for a foreigner nowadays in china to have his/her own private company, why should it be illegal to work as a FT without going through/with a chinese employer?
if you can run your own private school in china now, why should you not be able to run your own private classes, let's say in your living room?

cheers

[Roger]

[ryleeys]

[Yahnena]

roger wrote:

[Roger]