Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

[Volodiya]

Roger wrote:

[Yahnena]

thanks volodiya, you seem to be right: freelancing is not the correct term.

what about self-employment? can a foreigner open his/her own private business in china? my experience is: yes s/he can. also in foreign language education? yes, i think it's possible nowadays. just look at the numerous ads of foreign owned language schools.....

roger: for the last time: this is not a thread about visa questions (nor about tax questions, we all know that it is illegal everywhere not to pay income tax according to the local tax laws).

which law, however, prohibits a foreigner (FT) from being self-employed in china????

cheers

[cj750]

Actually "MoonLighting" is so called bec ause a second job takes place at night after your "Day Job" and not because of shame..or maybe in the case of some posters...

Freelaning (working without a steady place of employment) is "agin the law" for so many reasons .. not really worth the cross talk it has been given.

The reason folks "freelance" or "Moonlight" (I love that word) derives from the simple desire to make more money...

[Roger]

You are repeating your own question, Yahnehna: can a foreign national start up his or her own business. Did I address that query? Yes I did! It is, however, a mistake to liken moonlighting to running a declared business.

If you want to know how to operate a training cnetre (please: don't confuse that with "school"), the answer is very simple:

As a foreign national you will have to put up a minimum investment (it used to be RMB 500'000 but it has come significantly down and may now be well below RMB 100'000).
You can include in this investment proprietary rights to books and materials you design and intend using in your school - but your books must be approved by the local authorities (including the censorship).

As far as I know, you also must document a track record in education.

And, of course, you will be liable to paying tax; ordinarily taxes are set at around 30$ though some local administrations have carved out a special economic zone within their jurisdiction where they charge lower tax rates - some times as low as 15 percent.

This way they want to attract foreign investment - including schools. Check out where American, singaporean, Korean schools are located and you will see that they benefit from preferential tax and other treatment.
For more information i refer you, as I have done before for the benefit of others, to a western-funded consultancuy in Peking, dezshira Co.

As for SCHOOLS - remember, I draw a line of distinction between 'schools' and 'training centres - you will have to tead more carefully. You can only enrol foreign nationals including overseas Chinese; it is illegal to recruit local students. I do not know if this legal provision is breached occasionally by authorities who look the other way and school owners who admit Chinese students; I know some privately-owned boarding-schools and K-12s that admit both international and Chinese students, but these schools are owned by Chinese nationals.
You can easily gauge from the aforesaid that running a full-fledged school costs you way more than running a mere training centre; also it takes a different set of stamps of approval, and teachers have to be approved too before they can be hired. At this level you will appreciate that authorities want to know what you are up to - empty promises that you cannot deliver on will cost you dearly! And the syllabus must conform with national guidelines! Just imagine a foreign national teaching political science or Chinese history...

But even at training centres the State exercises a heavy-handed control; how else can you explain why exams are often done the Chinese way with skewed results known long before the exams are actually held? The British Council fought a long and valiant battle and won...; but at a price! Americans lost examination textbook copyrights to Chinese "partners" who misused those books and informed students of the exam questions or passages in advance; if you care for details check under "New Oriental English Beijing". Is it a wonder at least two thirds of Chinese TOEFL students don't rally pass that test and complain the U.S. embassy refuses them a study visa?

[jimoin]

First I would like to note that Roger has refused to deny that he is a paid mouthpiece for a Chinese private school. Here he is clearly protecting their interests with his uncritical defence of Chinese bosses and hysterical ravings over the very idea of foreigners freelancing.

Roger, so you're saying it's somehow MY fault that you're calling me a racist. Apparently in your back the front world view someone who denounces Chinese bosses for choosing foreign teachers based on the colour of their skin is a racist. I think this rather speaks for itself doesn't it?

Where do you draw the line regarding 'bad mouthing' or criticising Chinese employers? Why do you take such offence at any such criticism? You wouldn't know the first thing about my experiences, yet there you go defending any hypothetical Chinese boss who mistreats his staff and abuses the very notion of 'education'.

Actually strictly speaking students are customers, and that's certainly how Chinese bosses see them. Though they don't neccessarily treat them with such respect. But I don't see how you giving students a name other than customers gives you the right to get up on your moral high horse. Especially as you yourself have admitted to freelancing!!

Actually I'm sure most Chinese who pay to be taught by freelancers are fully aware of what they could be risking, and you don't give them enough
credit for having their own intellect. In any case how can a non-english speaking parent judge the quality of english schools anyway? What kind of quality controls do they have? As I said I know for a fact that they give pass marks to all students at New Century regardless of how bad they are. Also they hire foreign teachers purely based on race. For example they have had a Bulgarian working there, but they told the parents he was from Canada. How could they know any different? Also I was one of a very small minority who even had any university degree at all - the rest of them were just high school graduates. So much for your much-lauded quality control!

As far as freelancers go, I'm sure few who are found to be no good at teaching are able to continue in that job successfully. They build up a customer base through getting good english teaching outcomes. In effect the market decides whether or not they survive. As I said you can criticise them all you like, but the fact is that more and more parents and students are turning to them in the face of low quality, corrupt and over-priced private english schools.

As I said I seriously doubt a bunch of 'funseekers' will be able to successfully freelance over here without being able to demonstrate quality teaching. In fact plenty of funseekers come to private schools and are basically lead by the teachers and acting as dancing clowns to entertain students. These schools have such a high rate of turnover that they almost never have any experienced foreign teachers. So parents don't have time to make a judgement, they just trust in the fact that their kids are learning at an 'approved' english school. I think it's sad that you want this to continue and don't wish there to be a genuine alternative for Chinese people.

You can talk about laws all you like, this is a culture and society which has little regard for certain laws such as traffic rules, freelance teaching and prostitution. And authorities have shown little to no interest in that changing. Regardless of your rantings.

Your point over 'discrimination' with FTs getting paid better than Chinese teachers is not relevant to this topic. However I will note that again it is the market that decides the rate - if foreign teachers were not in such short supply then perhaps they would be paid less. However I seriously doubt many would be happy to teach here on the kind of wages Chinese take as normal. In any case FTs usually have to make a lot of sacrifices in return, and I for one feel those who are qualified and put an effort in deserve it. Regardless of whether or not they freelance. The quality is important. But like most Chinese, you Roger appear to put style (is it at a school or private home tutoring) over substance. I have to wonder, is it the students' interests you have at heart or that of your own employer?

[Yahnena]

thanks roger for confirming that self-employment for foreigners is legal in china.

since it is legal to have a foreign owned whatever-you-call-it-place-where-you-can-teach in china, which law then prohibits a FT from giving lessons at his home/his student's place, doing actually the same thing only on a smaller scale?

yes, i am repeating that question because i haven't seen an answer to it yet:
i repeat: which LAW states, that it is illegal to have private students/and or to give private lessons?

the answer wouldn't really require an elaborate discussion about moral standards of FTs in general and in particular, it's enough to give me the codex, the number or the name of the law, i'll be happy with that.

thanks and cheers

[Volodiya]

Roger wrote:

[Roger]

[Roger]

[Yahnena]

roger, you're the one twisting and twisting, an interesting psychological phenomenon actually.

i want a LAW that prohibits ......... you cannot give me one, but instead

1. you attack my integrity (i'm illegal, even though i'm only ASKING, you're the good guy, even though you admit yourself that you ARE the one FREELANCING, which you yourself condemn so vehemently).

2. then you try to blind me with obstacles, for what reason? obviously to discourage a naive reader.
artificial obstacles
2.a. you need a visa: it is common knowledge that you can get a visa, F or Z.
2.b. the employer will not let you.
some employers even encourage you to work in a second job and even give you recommendations. for the rest of them, it's just a matter of not signing a contract that states that you're not allowed to accept work elsewhere. in a country that has such a desperate need for language teachers, it should be possible for a FT to insist on ommitting such a clause.
2.c. the jobs are few: go to the web, look for part-time jobs in language teaching, you will find hundreds! in the bigger cities in china and the list is getting longer every day.
2.d. you'll need to pay taxes: why is that a problem, you yourself did it?
2.e. you will not be covered by health insurance: get your own.
2.f. you will not be able to rent an apartment: obviously with this last one you're running out of your options.
since when is it a problem for a foreigner to rent a place? hundreds/thousands of foreigners are doing it. have you ever heard of subsidies paid by schools, because they can't provide accommodation? so where do these FTs live, in private apts! since years, foreigners are living in private apts. in china, why not FTs?

i acknowledge that, even though you seem to have stuck around for quite a while, you are unable to give me tangible legal proof that self-employed language teaching is illegal in china. it seems to me that at present the question of giving private lessons is not really covered under chinese law.

reading through the thread one is bound to come to the conclusion that
-- while self-employed teaching is not prohibited,
-- there are a few regulations that have to be observed in order to give a FT a legal status in china.
-- if s/he is able enough to fulfill those, s/he is within the law .......... and out of the range of expoiting chinese employers.
and here is where your psychology kicks in: you've slaved for them for so long, so you have a hard time accepting that a newcomer might find a better (not only financially spoken, mind you) way to do the job.
well, look at it from the positive side: you got to enjoy china for a lot more years than we newcomers did........

cheers


PS: conclusion: self-employment for legally residing foreigners including FTs is LEGAL in china and no law says it is ILLEGAL to give private lessons. it has not been proven otherwise so far

[cj750]

All employment in China for foreigners is visa based...sponsored..so a free lancer would not be legal..and although I have done this by working for a company for 6 months and then taking a leave of absence for 6 months..even this is not legal..but sometimes pardonable....but to tell the truth..if working in this situation...watch out for PSB and Labor department checks...as for teaching out of a house...even the chinese teachers are not suspose to do this and cannot hold classes in their apartment but can tutor...as you can also....but if tudoring yur own students ..this may be view as taking advantage of a situation...somewhat like excepting a gift from a parent..and some of them offer great gifts...so if tutoring someone from another class...and if there is only one student or even just a few...it would likely end up in the additonal income file...with no problems..but if your neighbors get tired of kids playing recess in the hutong or street..or hallway..what ever they may turn you in and then is when you will learn the "word of the law" and addtional red tape all would like to avoid...truth is I dont like lectures anymore than anyone eles and if they are clouded in moral dribble..then it almost amounts to useless...but in this case it would be better to side with caution......

[2 over lee]

I think we need to define freelancing.
Would the many lucrative jobs in Shanghai for private training centres fall under this term? If so, there are many FTs on F visas making money in that city through such jobs. As this is classed as training, not teaching, these companies can in fact write you a letter which allows you to get your F extended.

OF COURSE there is freelancing in China. Roger himself freelances. He was getting annoyed at a business man who would not turn up to appointments in another thread.

As with most things it exists because there is a market for it. I can understand Roger's frustration with Johnnie come lately trying to cash in without doing the hard yards, or learning things the hard way if you will.

[Volodiya]

2 over Lee wrote:

[Yahnena]

yes, volodiya, that's what I think, too.

cheers