Job Discussion Forums

Taishan · Joined: 30 Oct 2003 Posts: 110

I want to say this at this time of year, as the new term is about to start, and many people will be beginning teaching for the first time.

Many on the forum seem to get side-tracked onto an FT's qualifications, or ethnicity, or whether someone is a backpacker etc. For me this is an irrelvent smoke screen, the truth is; how you behave in China as a teacher will directly relate to what they will think of you. So prepare classes, turn up and turn up on time. I'm often amazed by the amount of time some FT's spend sick, drunk and late for classes. (You can be sick or drunk, but don't let that be a reason for you not to be there).

I used to have a 40 plus hour a week job in my home country, and it seems easy to work the hours I do, but some seem unable to manage the few they have.

If you take work seriously your reputation and pay will grow over time, and Chinese teachers might not resent foreign teachers so much, as I know many Chinese teachers see foreign teachers as lazy and self-indulgent. Although I must say in some schools getting a good reputation can be impossible.

mandu · Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 794 Location: china

i agree with you
I have always been on time for classes and always get to work on time.I prepare well for class.

Yahnena · Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 48 Location: China

just let me add this for the record and for the ones that will be teaching for the first time:

- a 20 lessons teaching load per week is considered A FULL TIME TEACHING JOB in the western world. anything beyond should be overtime, also in china. the chinese regulations for FTs say that a full time teaching job starts at 12 lessons or 16 lessons a week.
- teaching more than 5/6 lessons a day is considered illegal in many countries and if the authorities notice a school who is allowing/or forcing their teachers to do that, the school will be first fined, and in case of repeating can be forced to close down. these authorities have first of all the interest of the students in mind: having an exhausted teacher after 6 or even 7 lessons in front of them is not fair.
- sundays and holidays by law are double pay in the west, in some places also saturdays.

so watch out, especially if you have signed a contract with a private school.

always be on time and establish yourself as being a reliable teacher, your good reputation will pay off in the future. after all, chinese like consistancy and loyalty. in the long run they prefer to pay you more than to hire a cheaper FT who they have to drag out of bed all the time. i've also seen FTs who show up for class smelling beer and alcohol: that is abominalbe behaviour for a teacher, everywhere! you will be considered 'low life' and you'll be treated 'low life', too.

cheers

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

I have know many qualified dedicated foreign teachers..some who had degrees...some who drank like a fish and still manage to give a good lesson...the end results is a good worker...to the Chinese is just that a good worker and not an asset...because of the temporary status ..it just simply is not worth it..even a great teacher has problems back in the west that will take him away from his place of employment...leave a gap in the schedule of classes...it is simply not in managements needs to keep a working relationship going by investing in a foreign workforce...that is why the 10 month contract has come about...and that is why schools hire after May...when most licenced teachers are already spoken for...
I not saying if a school finds a good one they will not keep him/her..but instead of rewards..that teacher will often fine ..the employer heaping extra duties on him..path of least resistance...only by establishing systems like the IB Program or other western educational programs that require a standard of degree and certification will this position become respected...

bubblebubble · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:48 am Post subject:

yes, the FT are also 'assumed' to be lazy around here (HK). perhaps the chinese teachers are TOO hardworking?! in canada, people stick closely to job descriptions and working hours, but here, people just don't remember that they DO have a life beside work. they just keep working and working, staying till late and coming in even on sundays to work. i just can't believe it. i stay late, but not all the time and i bring stuff home to work on. chinese people are just workaholics.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

My wholehearted thank you, Taishan, for your considerate and timely comment! After so much grousing, display of manicheanism and finger-wagging this was most welcome!

Let me say this: overall, our employers treat us relatively well considering how much they abuse their Chinese employees normally! Although we are not unionised we get a sort of blanket protection, and I am as much aware of the many abuses that still occur as anyone.
But we are, for instance, never forced to attend unproductive weekly teacher meetings as our Chinese colleagues are. From a professional point of view, teacher meetings are a must for the smooth running of a school. Few of us miss those meetings - and I can assure you our Chinese colleagues resent them!

I also agree that working more than 5 hours a day is exhausting; I for one try to keep my daily workload well below that, but what about those among us who only take more spare time for granted so they can maximise their income on the black market?
Actually, our weekly working time is set at 40 hours, - yes: fourty hours!
Just how they think we should spend 40 hours in the school is not explained; we should therefor thank our employers for not imposing on us this draconian rule although many employers make us spend office hours (so that none of us can moonlight).
Here is an extract from the relevant regulations (GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN EXPERTS...).

"The legal work time in China is 40 hours a week. Teaching time for each foreign expert shall be no less than 12 periods a week, subject to the categories and difficulty of the courses. Work time for practice courses of foreign language may be 16 periods; for courses in language theories and literature may be fewer periods. Besides teaching, foreign experts shall be responsible for such work as editing or revising of teaching materials, recording and consultation, etc."
So, they could construe this to mean that we owe them much more presence time than most of us actually do. All my public school employers paid me a full salary and perks for work loads seldom exceeding 16 hours a week, and revising of materials or editing of pamphelts has never been part of my contractual duties.

In training centres you normally work at least 20 hours a week, but then again they are not 'schools' and they don't need to pay you during the long holiday, unless you work.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

The Administration of Employment Contracts For Foreign Experts Working In The Cultural And Educational Fields....states that the paticulars shall be specified in the contract...Article 6 section 3....the time period, place and method of performance...
Yes they can expect 40 hours per week..first they should be prepaired to pay for it and second be up front about telling an employee about time involved with a job post...

Yahnena · Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 48 Location: China

FTs enjoy a certain (!) protection from the amount of abuse the chinese teachers have to put up with only for evident economical reasons:
if FTs would have to work under the same conditions as chinese teachers do, there soon would not be ANY FTs willing to come here, not even a backpacker. there already aren't enough FTs as it is.

on whose back then would the chinese schools make their millions, if they wouldn't have a white face to bait their students/and their parents?

this country has a lot of potential, but the tradition of how chinese treat each other in an employer-employee relationship reminds me again of slavery. something not even the glorious cultural revolution has been able to eradicate, it seems.
the presence of FTs should also prove to the chinese upper class (or nouveau riche) that there is another way ....

far from being happy, thankful, or grateful for not being treated like the chinese teachers, FTs should continue to show disdain and disgust for how chinese treat their own ...
hopefully, also those who've been in china for a long time don't lose this perspective.
a monthly salary of 5000, 6000 even 7000 or 8000 RMB is a LOW salary, everywhere in the world! FTs don't come to china for the money, they come for the experience. if they wanted money, there are lots of other countries to go to. and their chinese employers sure are the ones to profit from this attitude, for now......

cheers

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Yahnena · Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 48 Location: China

roger:

1. i am unable to give any of my income here in china to poor chinese simply because i cannot afford it (i was able to do that in africa and have done it on a large scale). but in china: between the yearly trip home, my monthly payment for my storage back home (yes, i do have a life in my home country Smile

), my insurance and my pension plan (no, i'm not a backpacker), i simply don't have it, considering the low salaries they're paying here.

2. i am here for the experience, not for the money. so are you, if i read you correctly.

3. private schools are making millions, millions!
just look at some of the franchisers, they're just raking it in.

4. if one has a bit of experience in other continents/and/or in other formerly communist countries, one pretty fast understands how this society is working, at least in the economic sector: corruption, hypocrisy, greediness, jealosy, lawlessness, like in so many parts of the world, and ! ............... a big artificial chinese smile to cover it all up.
but there is the other side of china, and that's what i'm here for.

5. quality of chinese english teachers: you bet, we should be training them instead of the kids. i haven't met ONE (not a single one, not even english majors) who don't mix up their "he"s and "she"s, and who in a simple conversation can use singulars and plurals correclty. these would be b a s i c s for a beginner/lower intermediate ESL learner, even in a third world country. as long as the english level of chinese teachers is that low, they need us. no danger of taking away jobs from them! are you kidding, FTs in ESL are occupying their jobs? by international standards, most of them wouldn't even qualify for a kindergarten ESL teacher in a REAL school. in the ESL field china has a long long way to go. i know that this is not easy for chinese to admit, but that's the current situation.
so for the time beeing, china badly needs ESL teachers.
FTs should behave well and at the same time work towards honest and fair remuneration for honest and fair work - we are NOT there yet (see para 3.).

cheers

ryleeys · Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 1101

Another thing to point out is that China is making the transition to requiring ESL teachers to have college degrees. Furthermore, in a country that makes it legal (or otherwise) to discriminate against foreigners and seems to actively discourage foreigners from remaining here for a long time, it may be a bit unreasonable to believe that the majority of ESL teachers here will remain indefinitely.

What this all leads to is that those RMBs are going to be converted to dollars, euros, pounds, and a host of other currencies. People are going to be going back home and paying off college loans and having lives in other countries, where the cost of living is quite different.

I fortunately don't have college loans to pay off, but many do. Is it reasonable to expect a person with $50,000 worth of college debt (pretty standard for a 4 year state university) to teach at a job making $700 a month? Well, if that's what they're going to offer, then they're going to get many more high school graduates than college graduates applying. Not everyone can afford to do what effectively becomes volunteer work.

So, there needs to be compromise going both ways. Foreigners will need to realize that they aren't going to make western scaled salaries here... but Chinese employers need to realize that they can't pay foreigners Chinese scaled salaries either.

Right now, I'd have to say that the vast majority of ESL jobs in China are leaning towards paying Chinese scaled salaries, leading to far more "unqualified" teachers than college graduates.

Taishan · Joined: 30 Oct 2003 Posts: 110

Ryleeys, the point isn't that a Chinese salary is however much in American dollars. It's that how much is your disposable income? If you read the Japan forums you can see it's possible to save about $300-$500 a month if you are careful, you earn a lot, but costs are high.

Before talking about how much you earn in US dollars you should consider that in north China for example there are very few costs; no tax, food is almost free, usually low housing costs. Go to all the wealthy developed countries, notice you only keep a tiny bit of your salary though your salary seemed big?

It's a shame that many FT's in China have never had a real job and don't seem to realize that whist China is not a socialist utopia, we do perfectly OK here.

CJ, sorry where I am people are willing to invest in keeping good FT's, because there are many that come here that are poor quality teachers, and it is difficult to recruit, as many potential teachers do not come to China as they promised they would. So most bosses I know would rather not take chances and employ a proven teacher who is already living locally.

ryleeys · Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 1101

Well, my point does have to do with savings. If you're earning $750 a month or 5,332rmb, then even if you have only $50 (405.5rmb) of expenses per month, you're only saving $700 and it would take you 6 years to pay off your college loans (not including interest).

Yes, foreigners live very well in China. And no, Chinese employers aren't exactly required to make sure that foreigners pay off their college loans or have enough money to be able to set up in the States... but if Chinese employers don't take this into consideration (especially the college loans thing), then foreigners with college degrees aren't going to take Chinese job offers of 5,000 a month seriously, even if it is enough to live comfortably in China.

Also, consider those that want to stay in China indefinitely. They'll have to provide for their own retirement almost entirely by themselves. Which could require what, 3,000 a month minimum (remember, if you're not teaching housing isn't free). Now, I don't want to work after I'm 55... but we'll say 65 for this demonstration. Lets assume that you're healthy and live to 80 (fairly average). That's 15 years of spending 3,000 per month which is 540,000 rmb. If you come here straight out of college at the age of 22, then you'd have to save 12,558 per year. Seems reasonable. But that's 20% of your salary. And we haven't even mentioned the cost of sending your kids to college (if you have any), medical care, or a host of other economic considerations.

Now, in the States a first year teacher with an undergraduate degree in education will pull in about $30,000 a year, with a union guaranteed 3% raise every year. Now, that doesn't go as far as you'd hope at American prices. Teachers do get various incentives though. Health care that covers not only them, but their entire family. Reduced tuition for in-state schools for their children. Banks offer reduced interest rates on mortgages. And a host of others...

I'm not saying that we should be paid at western salaries since we live in China. But we also can't ignore western commitments either. If I had college loans, I never could have dreamed of coming to Korea or China for two years. As it is, two years is the absolute maximum that I can afford to spend here when you account for what my expenses will be back in the States: housing, car, insurance, food, retirement, etc. And that includes the fact that I've been contributing to retirement investments for 6 years already!

The point remains that for 5,000rmb, a Chinese employer is going to get 1) a short-term rental, or 2) a teacher with no college degree. If that's what they want, then more power to them. But if they want stability, then the pocketbooks had better open up.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

If your school is investing in keeping teachers, .Taishan and you are satisfied with the health care offered(outpatient)..the housing aid ......the retirement bennies.additonal training programs..career advancement paths....then you have found a rare osais in a desert of educational opportunities...and I wish you the best of luck..but in my case..and I have what I would call an exceptional job..for china...these things are self invested....and the employer does have a vested interst in keeping employees that are in country already because they know that these foreigners have accepted an un-equal playing field as a standard and know how to overcome the shortcomings of a system...
Ryleeys post make ths most cent$ when it comes to this kind of employment post or placement..figuer what you will need to pay off investments and match your work effort to what you need...hard to do in China..except for us that don't have loans or credit cards...I have never had either...except for one car loan that had me in a strangle hold for three years...and which I made mearly days before being laid off..what a lesson that was...
Anyone who thinks that the quality of FT's would not change if the incomes where more in line simply is not dealing with social reality..as much as I suspect when you hear advice to give away your income..true charity is a budgeted item and is not intended to insite answers from other posters...personal examples aside....Cult-revolutionary sort of manageement is the major reason that China now has a population of parents that feel cheated out of their education and forseen profits form employment that requires an education..in this resect the revolution failed them...the fiscal reality is that schools have to trun a profit..modest and respecful..but a profit if it is ever to be expanding it's educational goals..our comercial value here is often distilled to one thing, the "commercial value of a white face"..but the true value of the FT is the encouragement and hope that they bring to a students life and the thoughts of the furture of the parents...chinese teachers can't do this and it is doughtful that it will become a core cource at a Normal University...When some one tells you get a better understanding of the society ..they are often talking about you accepting their verson of the way society is...and a show of "disdain" will only serve to make one poster feel morally superior over the other...

benno · Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Fake Mongolia

some of you guys...god i dont know Shocked

i have worked and lived in china now for the last few years
i have paid off my college loan (over 10,000 euros)
i have managed to go to the world cup and support my team (ireland)..and expect to go to germany next summer (fingers crossed)
i have travelled home twice..including bringing my chinese wife home to meet the old ones!
i have saved a wee bit...and have run up a hefty credit card bill (gambling..) and pay into a nice pension plan

all from my shi tty chinese wage

and beleive me i also party hard...drink hard
and buy a lot of essentials....computer stuff...dvd player...mobiles...digital camera

im doing fine...why? well i save a lot...more than i would if i was back home
i dont pay tax.....my bills are small...eating out is cheap...and beer is less than water here

if you want western wages ..i have a good solution
go to america or europe!! simple really

slackers... Sad