Job Discussion Forums

[stillnosheep]

[nat_capelli_rossi]

Victoria,

you wrote in one of your responses that there are many schools in Spain that favour American/Canadian teachers...as a Canadian, I have found that all schools favour British nationals, so any info regarding schools that have a N. American preference for teachers would be greatly appreciated!

Also, does anyone know if work visas must be applied before departure, or once I am in Spain? I spoke to someone at the Italian consulate, and they told me that a visa must be applied for upon arrival in Italy, which seemed really strange to me...just wondering whether Spain had the same policies.

Thanks!

[LitlMina]

also, it�s not true that illegals don�t pay "one cent of taxes." we pay iva just like everyone else, and for metro passes, gas and water taxes from our apartments...income tax and social security are not the only taxes that exist.

we don�t collect unemployment or social security, either. so, no, we are not sucking the spanish government dry.

[Moore]

LitlMina, you mention the metro (subsidised heavily by public taxes) and the gas and water systems (likewise): you are here in Europe illegally, at least have the common decency to keep quiet and not try to somehow justify it.

The iva (vat) system is just one part of the tax system, so you are not contributing to the infrastructure that you happily use to fund your time here. By working in Spain illegally you are not only undermining Europeans workers rights, you are also taking out more than you put in.

Working illegally is tax evasion and is also a criminal offence: you are breaking the law here, so please, don�t try to make out it�s ok - it�s not.

[Spainish]

I understand where you are coming from Moore, but I (and apparently many more here) wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I'm willing to bet that each and everyone of us "illegals" would be more than happy to become a legal working resident and/or citizen of Europe, but the chances of that are slim unfortunately (it's not like we want to break the law). On top of that (assuming you know full well the types of salaries most teachers make here, especially those without papers) what gives you the idea we are raking it in and hoarding it off to the Cayman islands? Every cent of my pay check goes straight back into the Spanish/European economy and sometimes (as is the case for many others I am sure) I even have to pull from my own personal savings back in the states.

We are most certainly contributing to the system (furthermore, not all contributions are silver and gold, mind you) and very rarely take anything back from it except good experiences and great memories.

Spainish

[Moore]

If it were enough to pay i.v.a. alone, then why do we have taxes and social security charges here? Because i.v.a. alone is not enough.

Just because you spend money here doesn�t mean you�re putting money back into the local economy (unless you buy only Spanish made products from Spanish owned and run shops, which is deeply unlikely, if not impossible). As an EU citizen I also had to subsidise my life from my savings, that�s just a question of being in the TEFL "industry" here.

Spain is one of the only EU countries where illegals can get away with working: I taught in France for four years and there are no illegal teachers there and the many private language schools do just fine thankyou. The only difference over there is that all teachers have proper contracts, proper salaries and even a union - the schools have to pay for all this because they do not have the choice of just hiring the next unfussy illegal who walks through the door.

You are not contributing: you are eroding the rights of Europeans, not paying taxes, and breaking the law.

Don�t get me wrong, I have many good American friends over here teaching, but they all have the good manners to keep their heads down and enjoy the rare opportunity of working in Europe and they don�t try to justify the unjustifiable. Please have the decency and respect to do the same.

[autoenglish]

This is so odd. You only have to follow the papers to see all the tax dodging and cheating that goes on here, at local level as well as national level by Spanish individuals and companies. Are the Spanish really worried about a few 100 Americans giving English classes illegally? I think not.

And what about private classes? If you want to pay tax on them you have to become 'aut�nomo', which is totally ruinous.

As a TEFL teacher, I think it's really important that students get to hear North American accents (and Ozzie ones too). I'm a Brit myself, more or less a PR speaker, but hold no prejudice on accent. Accent is something students need experience of, especially the American one. I'm sure our cousins from across the soup are doing a great job here and are appreciated. Lots of Spanish go to The States to do masters and stuff and get part-time jobs themselves.

Maybe we should ask our Spanish friends what they feel about this and see what they have to say. I mean, why should a Brit care? A sense of moral superiority? Do me a lemon.

Cheers then, Bob.

p.s. I have witnessed British animosity toward US citizens several times in Spain, but have never understood it.

[Moore]

It�s not a few hundred, it�s several thousand - it affects me because it lowers my wages, job security, and any ability to demand a better contract.

It�s not a question of "moral superiority", nor "British animosity towards Americans"; like I said, I�ve got many good American friends here, it�s just annoying to see my working rights eroded and then have people on this board who are breaking the law try to justify it.

...and what on earth is the lemon thing about...?

[autoenglish]

Hmm. I definitely agree that wages and contracts are rubbish here, but I'm just not convinced it's the Americans' fault.

My TEFL mates in China, however, get free flights, great wages, all the paperwork, 12 month (as opposed to 9 month) contracts, whether or not they're North Americans, British or Australian, and promoted to DOS if they do well.

If you chat to your Spanish pals, you'll see how they suffer from short-term part-time contracts and get 'released' just before the law stipulates a contract proper should be issued. They get stuffed by the system too.

TEFLing in Spain is fabulous, unless you were thinking about starting a family or getting a mortgage.

I find that any savings I might have made over the school year disappear over the summer. Chances of promotion - I don't really see any.

I might do a PGCE and then look for a post in an international school. It's the only way of making a stable living in teaching English here that I can see.

Enjoying this discussion,

Cheers, Bob.

[foss]

[Moore]

In terms of alternative work, I think the last two posters are right: the only way to make solid, stable money here is to go into international schools, or the state education system (both mainly inaccessible to non-EU members, but very difficult to get into), or find another job in another sector (secretarial, IT, international companies etc).

I think that if TEFL in Spain is ever to become anything more than a one/two year jolly with a useful language thrown in, and a job which, more often than not, is semi self-funded, then taking several thousand illegals (and that�s just Madrid) out of the equation has to be a step in the right direction.

This is not very realistic I know, and I�d hate to see my American mates (hard working, honest people all of them) get thrown out.

What I object to is seeing people discussing on these pages how to circumvent our European laws, and trying to somehow comfort themselves that they are doing people a favour, when clearly they are doing just the opposite.