Job Discussion Forums

some waygug-in · Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 339

Wow. Check out the latest comments on the Globe and Mail site.

Maybe the other side of the coin will finally be shown? Confused

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051010.wxkorea1010/BNStory/National/

Prairie Teacher from Calgary, Canada writes:
I am a qualified teacher who taught in Korea for 5 years.I held a valid work visa, but was admittedly in constant violation of their immigrant labour laws.As were 90% of the other teachers there.

During one of my vacations a few years back, I was recruited to teach in an children's English winter camp.The school ended up getting 'raided' by the immigration officials (who had been paid off by a competing English school in order to run ours out of business).All of the teachers at our school were rounded up, passports taken and we were herded to the immigration office.During my interrogation I admitted my 'crimes' and vowed to the government official never to break the law again.It was at this point that the official informed me that if I did not complete my contract with this school for whom I was being arrested for teaching with, that I would be detained, fined and deported immediately.We quickly discovered that he had now been paid off by the company that was sponsoring our English school.I now had no choice but to continue breaking their sacred labour law.

Believe me, this 'crack down' is politically motivated, and as soon as some politician finds it is becoming difficult to get a Canadian teacher to teach his kids illegally in his home, things will go back to normal.

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

The debate is still raging over at EFL-Law. Seems nobody can really get a handle on what's truly happening.

some waygug-in · Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 339

That says it all. The situation is far more complicated than just a few people with fake degrees.

What about the schools and recruiters who told those people that it would be OK? (and perhaps continue to do so)

What about certain immigration officials who turn a blind eye to such practices? Except when it becomes an issue....like now.

What about legal teachers who are doing a few 'illegal' privates on the side? (like teaching an immigration officer's kids - privately)

What about people on student visas who need a bit of extra cash?

What about schools who force their teachers to work illegally? (it's only legal to work at 1 location in Korea - unless you have special permission from immigration)

What about employers who deliberately mislead their teachers with regard to the visa process, thereby having the teacher work illegally so that they can cheat the teacher on wages as well as not pay taxes?

What about the thousand other situations and shades of 'in-between' that exist?

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject:

A lot of possible what ifs and what abouts, but we still don't really know what's up in Korea. Anybody there have anything to add?

Personally, I tend to think that anybody using a false diploma or qualification knows pretty well that they are comitting fraud, and I don't feel a lot of sympathy when they get caught. That kind of thing would be subject to criminal penalties back home, as well, and there's really no excuse.

But my world wide experiences (not in Korea, mind) lead me to think that the employer is usually complicit in illegal working practices. I wouldn't know where to buy a fake diploma in Korea. Would you? Who put these people in touch with the printer, eh?

And then there are those who were duped into shady visa situations by unscrupulous employers, which from what I've seen here is pretty common. These people aren't really to blame, and should probably be spared the hassles. But if anybody wants to round up the employers...

Justin

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

Why does immigration accept fake degrees? When I first got a work visa I had to bring my original degree to the Korean embassy where they notarized its authenticity. How did these people get around this?

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

Stephen, that is true, but I am getting the impression people are making things on their computer and printing them out. They are not getting degrees from diploma mills. I could be wrong, I have no experience with this. I got my degree the old-fashioned way.

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

For one thing, degree mill degrees are not that expensive, relatively speaking. Nor are out and out fake degrees from real universities. I know a few places to get those. I briefly considered, seriously, buying a bachelor degree "from" Cal State University, Fullerton (which school I actually did attend for a while). I didn't do it, but it would be easy and cheap.

Thing is, in Asia, it's not really necessary. I have seen many employers just make a fake degree on the xerox machine. It doesn't even LOOK real. But the government goes along with it. They don't care. I saw this done in China as well as Indonesia. And they did it with degrees and TEFL certificates. I'm not saying good or bad. The situation is what it is. I wouldn't be the teacher in that situation (this is why I ended up not getting the fake degree) - a teacher who goes along with this knows full well that it isn't legal. But the only reason I wouldn't do it is because I don't want to go to jail or be deported. I have no moral problem with it at all. Because, as an employer myself, I screen candidates with interviews and check references and so on. Teaching ESL the way we do it at our school is something that most native speakers can be trained to do. It doesn't require a degree. These days, I have finally got my boss to go along with the legal requirements, but most schools can't afford to do so. Hence, the illegal activity.

ls650 · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

HA!
Yep, I meant what I said. I make it clear to them that I'm unconcerned with their university experience, BUT it's necessary for the visa, and that I'm not gonna go down for him if he decides to lie. If immigration ever came to me, I'd just say that - "The teacher told me he/she had a degree, and I gave you what I had." End of story. If the teacher chooses to lie to me about it, it makes no difference to me. I base my hiring decision on how well he/she comes across in the interview, and on references and recommendations, and a demo class if it's possible. It's simply not a job that requires university experience. Just intelligence and a willingness - really, an eagerness - to learn to do it well. I can spot that a mile off. A couple THOUSANDS of miles off, even. I haven't made a bad decision in hiring - or not hiring - a teacher yet in the almost-three years that I have been making those decisions.

Really, lying is an over-rated sin, in my opinion. I'm sure that most of you would conclude from that statement that I'm morally bankrupt. Well, whatever. People ask a lot of probing questions, and I don't think that lying is an inappropriate way of dealing with them. "Mind your own business" often implies a particular answer, and "Do you have a degree?" seems to require a particular answer, in that a negative response will lose you the job.
Again - what we do is not brain surgery. It's not that hard to learn, and it doesn't pay well enough to demand a whole lot in the way of qualifications.
But that's my opinion. I don't run the whole school. I'm just the DoS. My boss refuses to break the law, and good for him. As a Chinese businessman, I'm a little amazed that he stays in business, but it gives me a good feeling about the guy. We butt heads, but you gotta respect that.