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Bertrand
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293
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 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Minhang Oz wrote: |
Bertrand [that's as in "Russell" folks] signs off one of his rare Hong Kong Forum posts with "Dr. 'Bertrand' BA MA[Hons] Ph.D".
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If you had read the post to which my post was a reply (perhaps to much to ask on this forum), you would see that that was a direct (and sarcastic) response the woman who was complaining that she had to work and who signed off her message with a whole host of letters. |
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Bertrand
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| AKA wrote: |
| But who'd WANT to go to a country so screwed up they can't employ women by law |
Screwed up? Why? Because it is different to your country? Anyway, women can be employed so try to get your facts straight. Women can be employed by employers with a license to employ women (they can only teach other women; men can not teach girls or women expect via a telescreen). Tempted? Been there, done that. |
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Minhang Oz
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 610
Location: Shanghai,ex Guilin
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Bertrand wrote
"(perhaps to much to ask on this forum),"
Perhaps it's too much to ask that Bertrand check his grammar, especially as he is so quick to correct others in this area.
Neither of the points he makes address the criticisms levelled at him,ie,
1] What qualification does he possess that enables him to evaluate teachers? If the answer is "none", I suggest he stop side stepping this - amongst other issues.
2] His assertion that only 5% of FTs in China would qualify for a job in Saudi is probably false, and at any rate unsupportable. His attempt to dodge the issue with" Screwed up? Why? Because it is different to your country?" shows a tolerance of cultural difference that his postings about China and it's people belies. See the off-topic "Why is it so?' thread for an example.
As usual, Bluey is spot on with his earlier assessment of the "non professor". |
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AKA
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 184
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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I wrote "...who'd want to go to a country that's so screwed up they can't employ women by law?"
Bertrand replied:
"Screwed up? Why? Because it is different to your country? Anyway, women can be employed so try to get your facts straight."
But the job advert. said:
"To comply with Saudi government regulations all candidates must be male and under the age of 60 years at the time of appointment."
So, where did I go wrong? Are these regulations not law? Do they exclude women?
As for me characterising Saudi society as "screwed up", yes, my prejudices are showing. When offered two jobs some years ago, one a highly paid position at an international school in the UAE [and I don't require a geography lesson; I hope you understand my drift], and the other in China at a state college, guess which I chose? This decision would be beyond Dr. B's comprehension however!
But as for St. Bertrand/St.Anthony being the one to point this out, my mind is still boggling! I wouldn't go so far as saying he's racist or xenophobic, but a recent comment he made stereotypes Chinese :
"I think it stems from the fact that they are ignorant, arrogant, impatient ". Is this different to Bertrand's "own country"? If not, I withdraw my case.
Last edited by AKA on Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Count_Fathom
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Ignorant arrogant and impatient: a description fitting for many countries, including but not exclusive to China, the USA, France.... |
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AKA
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 184
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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It can be applied to individuals, but not to an entire nation.
Sometimes we perceive a country in terms of it's leaders, in which case George Bush, and my country's PM, John Howard, do the rest of us no favours at all. Generally, living in a country for a while breaks down these stereotypes, but obviously not always. I witnessed [but not passively] the persecution of Middle Eastern and Central Asian students who had arrived in Australia as refugees, but were mysteriously blamed by "white" students for the terrorist attacks of 9/11. This is the result of stereotyping, which in itself is a pernicious form of ignorance. |
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Bertrand
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| AKA wrote: |
I wrote "...who'd want to go to a country that's so screwed up they can't employ women by law?"
Bertrand replied:
"Screwed up? Why? Because it is different to your country? Anyway, women can be employed so try to get your facts straight."
But the job advert. said:
"To comply with Saudi government regulations all candidates must be male and under the age of 60 years at the time of appointment."
So, where did I go wrong? Are these regulations not law? Do they exclude women? |
Where you went wrong was assuming you must be right because you want to be. In the Kingdom of Saudi - the House of Saud - visas are issued on an individual basis. That means that each and every position has its own particular requirements and thus government regulations. The advert you quote, (if you had investigated it first you would have ascertained this), merely refers to that particular post. In order to comply with the requirements of that post you need to be male. This is obvious to any one who has ever been there; if the students are male then of course the teacher is going to have to be male! How could a female teacher teach males when, in Saudi, women can't drive (or even sit in the front seat of a car), can't (being realistic) speak in public unless they are spoken to, etc., etc. This is the state where if a girl is raped, she herself may be charged with having sex outside of marriage (and no, that is not a sick joke, it is the way things work in the country that Bush praises as a [conservative] leading light in the Middle East). In fact, it is a dictatorship run by a ruling family and differs little from the former administration of Afghanistan, viz., the Taliban. Indeed, Saudi was one of only 3 states in the entire world to formally recognise Afghanistan as a state in its own right. Quite telling.
From the URL: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/05/13/saudi-women.htm
"Saudi Arabia has no laws that bar the employment of women or require the segregation of men and women in the workplace. But it is a long tradition, one that is changing slowly.
Over the past decade, the percentage of Saudi women in the workforce has grown from just 1% to 7%. Today, nearly 60% of university students are female and 20% of private businesses are owned by women. Until the 1960s, women were denied any formal education.
"This is a society that isolated women to protect them," says Abdulaziz al-Fayez, a member of an all-male council that advises the royal family. "Now we have doctors, Ph.D.s. Their role is growing."
| AKA wrote: |
| As for me characterising Saudi society as "screwed up", yes, my prejudices are showing. When offered two jobs some years ago, one a highly paid position at an international school in the UAE [and I don't require a geography lesson; I hope you understand my drift], and the other in China at a state college, guess which I chose? This decision would be beyond Dr. B's comprehension however! |
Hardly, unless you like it being a pulverising 50 degrees for months on end in their summer and having to sit away from the 'women's section' in McDonalds (and always having the risk hanging over your head that IF something DID happen then you really might get your precious head chopped off, or at best a whack over the head from a member of the religious police) then you probably wouldn't like it. Anyway, they [employers] make lots and lots of offers to prospective employees but usually only around 5 or 10% of all applicants are approved by the authorities. (When I had my interview for Saudi at the Embassy in London, I actually saw them turning people away from the door who had been sent invitations. The reason? Simple, they were 'too dark' or had stupid metallic stuff in their face [NOT appropriate for an interview at the Saudi Embassy], or just looked like dawks.) It is not easy to get a job there. So, for example, if you are a Jew then you can not take up employment in Saudi (in fact, if you are a Jew you can not even set foot on Saudi soil which basically means you can not even set foot on an aircraft destined for Saudi (as they check you at point of departure for visas, etc.). You might also have problems if you have been circumcised for you would have to show that you had this done DESPITE not being a Jew (something they really will find quite hard to believe). They even treat their own 'brothers' (i.e., fellow Moslims) like dirt, and I have seen this with my own eyes during the preperations for lunar calander fasting event of Ramadan (one of the five pillars of Islam). All Moslims from African states, for example, had it made quite clear to them that they were only being tolerated, they were not welcomed.
| AKA wrote: |
| "I think it stems from the fact that they are ignorant, arrogant, impatient ". Is this different to Bertrand's "own country"? If not, I withdraw my case. |
There is, of course, one really quite huge difference between the two points though: I've been to China and so have formulated that opinion (which is MINE and is one which I am entitled to have, and is also hardly unique) but YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TO SAUDI. Thus, you have predujices (here I would like to use the German Vorurteil as it really captures your opinion) not related to experience, whereas I have opinions formulated as a direct result of my experience with the land and its people. If you can't perceive the vast gulf between these two situations then, I'm afraid, I have neither the time nor the energy to explain it to you. Rather, I'll merely tell you that others have pointed it out to me already. |
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bluey
Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Bertie, just to let you know I'll be reading your post just as soon as I've finished scratching my arse and stuff. It looks really interesting*, and it must've taken a fair bit of research, as you've been conspicuous by your absence the last few days. Those obscure, useless facts don't just find themselves, eh?
Keep digging. 
*not |
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bluey
Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| I take it back! It was quite interesting. Now, where were we... Oh yes - Dr B was poo-pooing AKA's assertion that Saudi was "screwed up" innit? |
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ITCjohn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Xiamen
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:23 am Post subject: Which forum is this anyway? |
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| Sorry, my finger must've slipped on the keyboard and entered the Saudi /Gender (In)Equality / Refugee Forum by mistake. I'll get right back to my task of finding employment on the CHINA JOB-RELATED Forum right away.....do you want this tent flap open or closed Bert? |
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AKA
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 184
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Bertie
Spelling reality check....it's "calendar", not "calander".
And you can say "Muslim" or "Moslem", but not "Moslim".
And thank you for supporting my argument - even though I haven't been there - that Saudi Arabia is a screwed up country. Idi Amin may disagree however. It seems they are highly hospitable to exiled murderous dictators.
ps Oh yeah, I could have saved you the trouble.....when I said "they can't employ women" I thought it was pretty clear I was refering to the employers in this case. I'd hardly refer to a country as "they", though you might.
Last edited by AKA on Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aaronschwartz
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 145
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I have been doing my best to recall where I have seen such long winded diatribe that goes nowhere and proves nothing ad nauseum. Then it him me like a ton of maple syrup. Hubei Canuck. Me thinks our old friend Hubei Canuck is now back with us in the form of Dr. bertrand!!
Mystery solved??
Raise the grand old Canadian flag and pass the maple syrup, please? |
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Bertrand
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| AKA wrote: |
thank you for supporting my argument - even though I haven't been there - that Saudi Arabia is a screwed up country. Idi Amin may disagree however. It seems they are highly hospitable to exiled murderous dictators.
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Ah! Yes, this is a very good point (how did you know this out of interest? I have only ever seen this in a French magazine and a (high brow) German newspaper). Let me ask you all a question. Imagine if, during the recent attack on Iraq by, among others, the US and the UK, it was found that Idi Amin 'The Butcher of Uganda' was living - in luxury - in Iraq. There would be outrage and people would have used this piece of information to further discredit and 'Hitlerise' Saddam. Indeed, it would have engendered front page condemnation. As it happens, however, Idi Amin was given exile in Suadi (after he converted to Islam and saw the light). Not only has this news been surpressed for years; even the recent spate of Gulf Wars failed to bring the matter to the attention of the masses.
I once saw a TV interview with a young Saudi official from the 'Ministry of Information' (any Orwell readers out there?). In this interview he stated that it was not true to say, however, that Idi Amin was going unpunished. On the contrary he said (whilst keeping a straight face) he is limited to only one wife.
This, actually, was the very same official who was once asked why the driving of cars in Saudai by women was illegal (cars are not mentioned in the Qu'ran!). Do you know what he said? "You are the ones [the British] who say women make dangerous drivers, all we are doing is taking what you say seriously." I never really did find out if it was a (bad) joke or an accurate reflection of official reasoning. |
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AKA
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 184
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| I've known for years........can't remember my [lowbrow] source. Probably world news gets a better coverage in Australia than in many other countries. As for Idi's recent declining health, it was in the News Corp. "The Australian". |
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once again
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Have I missesd something or has Bertrand not yet answered the query about his and him, or whatever it was? |
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