Job Discussion Forums

[GabeKessel]

Some Latin American countries that have a big US presence such as Panama, Mexico ( in tourist areas) and the US territory of Puerto Rico ( which the natives vehemently call a " country") have that attitude to a big degree. In the US, many long-time Spanish-speaking immigrants often have that same attitude against the "Americano" who "dares" to speak 'their" language.

Argentina and Uruguay are not like that at all because they were built by so many different Europeans that there is no conflict between a "brown skinned Jose Rodriguez- the "Latino" vs. white-skinned, blue-eyed, John Smith- "the Americano". America has long ago stopped being that way but the image persists.

I was actually very happy to be in those countries as people would ask me for directions or even about tourist sights. I could have easily passed for one of them, whereas in East LA I didn't.

[ls650]

[Guy Courchesne]

OP...where is this information from? A study... or personal opinion? I ask because our experiences are very different.

[Justin Trullinger]

I'm a fluent Sanish speaker in Ecuador, but with green eyes and red hair. I don't run into the situation described here that often, but...

Last month a good friend from Spain was visiting me, and he is tall and European looking. In my locals, it was assumed that I would translate for him. (I'm happy to, but it seemed unnecessary... )

A few months ago, looking for an unfamiliar restaurant, I asked a stranger for directions. "No hablo ingl�s," he responded. I told him, in Spanish, that I speak Spanish. He insisted that I did not, although he responded to all my questions as if he had understood. ("Bueno, pero yo s� hablo espa�ol," and "pero estas hablando ingl�s, y el ingl�s en mi colegio era muy mal," "�pero, sabes donde esta la guarida del coyote?" "si, si, esta en la proxima calle, pero no s� decirlo en ingl�s" and so on)

It's not universal, but it does happen. I think in the previous converstion, my "friend" had been overimbibing, but it does happen, drunk of sober.

And although I agree with Gregor, the frequency of this problem is exagerrated in the minds of those who only think they are speaking well.
I'm sure that isn't my case, though. In my job, in addition to all office interactions being in Spanish, I have frequent phone calls, with strangers, explaining all manner of things in SPanish, with nary a problem. It only comes up when they can see me.

Which leads me to think it's an expectation thing. Calling a professional organisation on the phone, everyone expects the guy who answers to speak the local language, and I do, no problem. Seeing me on the street, some people have such a powerful expectation that I won't, they can't assimilate the fact that I do. It isn't really frequent, but it's real. Usually only happens in the most tourist areas, and especially if I'm not dressed for work. (The tie seems to help, as it causes people to assume that I'm not here on a backpacker holiday.)

regards,
Justin

[chechevitsa]

you know, I had a friend who stopped on the street one day in Romania and chatted with an elderly lady selling flowers on the street corner. my friend explained afterwards that she'd had this amazing, almost psychic experience of the woman telling her in romanian all about her life story, and she understood it all.

in light of this thread, I'm wondering if a bit of the reverse side of this expectation wasn't somehow at the bottom of her experience. sure, english speakers generally expect shopkeepers and other people trying to sell things to tourists to speak english, or at least are not surprised that they do, but who expects some old lady on the street corner to be speaking in anything but her native language?

[thelmadatter]

I totally ran into the "how dare you speak my language" attitude while I was living in the border area in Arizona. (and then you get those who complain who Anglos dont learn Spanish because they are racist). I wrote a 26-page paper on this when I was a grad student. Got an A on the paper but it sealed my fate against any support from the politically-correct English department as far as going for a PhD. (just as well, by the way) After all, we can't let racists such as me get a PhD.

That attitude, that somehow Anglos speaking Spanish "pollutes" the language (not my word... the word of a Hispanic professor in New York that I cited in my paper) is even worse when your Spanish isnt perfect and you desperately need the practice. My first conversation partner in Spanish was a Chilean (bless his heart) who had no identity issues and helped me immensely.

I have NOT run into anything similar here in central Mexico. Again I attribute it to people here knowing who they are and heck, expect people to speak their language - esp here in a city with little to no experience dealing with foreigners. I had problems communicating during my first 6 months to year - mostly because of my nerves and accent (and the aforementioned lack of experience with foreigners).

I think attitudes toward foreingers speaking the local language has everything to do with the culture. Ive not been in China but from the forums here and my Chinese friends from my masters program, I get the impression that the reason they cant deal with a foreigner speaking their language is that somehow it makes the foreigner equal and somehow more "human" and civilized.

[MO39]

thelmadatter,

I found your comments very interesting. I wonder why the ideas expressed in your grad school paper were deemed "racist". I also find it maddening for a Hispanic professor in the States to say that Spanish is "polluted" when spoken by non-native speakers, when you consider that any form of Spanish spoken in the US is heavily "polluted" by the English that surrounds it, whether it be on the border with Mexico or in New York City.

MO

[spidey]

Unbelievable!...

How can anyone, let alone a professor, say that a language can even get polluted? Are we so narrow minded that we think "a language" is something that is tangible and follows the laws of borders and boundaries? Something that intrinsinc to our own cultures?
It doesn't take a genius to know that language is as free flowing as the wind. At no point in history has a language ever been the sole property of any one culture. And so on, and so on, and so on...

Are we as human beings truly the idiots as we appear to be?

Holy *beep*! These examples of close mindedness really get under my skin!

s

[merlin]

I remember Canadian teachers in Korea being a bit miffed that a Korean teenager spoke English with a very noticable Australian accent. The nerve of the kid! He didn't even make the effort to get rid of his accent.

[dajiang]

I've noticed the phenomenon a number of times in China.
Can be frustrating and amusing at the same time.
You just say something in Chinese, and people look at you glassy eyed and start to talk about you with other people right next to ya. And this is not because our Chinese is unintelligible, but just because we're not supposed to talk Chinese, so we automatically can't.

Anyway, it definitely happens in Holland, where most foreigners are almost denied the right to speak Dutch. Very strange but people just tend to switch to English the minute they notice an accent.

That's different in France and Spain though.
I suppose that's because less people speak English there.

And in Thailand and Russia people have an almost opposite reaction when you speak their language. Then they really open up, and start babbling away in their language.

It's all subjective anyway eh.
We can't really make generalisations like these, since it's more difficult than one might think at first sight.

DJ

[GabeKessel]

I think all of the above happen when:

1) You have large ethno-cultural groups of people who are socially and politically "pitched" against each other. The example would be the US, especially in large areas where Hispanics feel that they are oppressed by the "Gringo" and they want to preserve the purity of "La Raza".

For instance, the event with the Hispanic professor in the US would probably never happen in Buenos Aires- people there are all of different backgrounds: British, Polish, German, Russian, Hungarian, etc. All are Argentines and all speak Spanish. There is no "Raza" there, meaning the mythical Mestizo " Jose Rodriguez" who needs to "protect his culture and race" against a mythical blond John Smith- the case of the US. An Argentinian more often than not is a "Jose Smith" himself.

Some Asians ( except tourists and foreign students) after living in the US also develop the LRC. It is funny that after years of living in some Asian country you come to the US and want to speak Japanese or Tagalog to the people and they give you these squeamish looks. Really sad.

2) When you are abroad and places where there are large groups of tourists or military men whom the natives see every day and whose ways and behavior they think they already know and are trained to deal with- Mexican border towns, San Juan, Puerto Rico and the tourist areas in the Philippines, Thailand, and other such places. Cairo? Paris, maybe?

Places that are not like that at all:

1)Smaller towns- not necessarily very small but kind of like second biggest cities which do not get many tourists. One is far less likely to be treated with a Linguo-Racial Complex in Osaka than in Tokyo.

2)Places where all kinds of immigrants come to assimilate- Argentina, as I have mentioned, Brazil, I guess. And of course, the US, Canada ( with the English language) These people are used to seeing immigrants, not tourists. The attitude is- "this is Argentina, you are here now, you had better speak my language".

3) Remote areas where people can speak only one language and they will not answer to you in English simply because they don't know any English- rural Russia and other rural areas in E. Europe. Rural China, I guess? Small town Italy?

4) Places where the person you are speaking to is a foreigner as much as you are a foreigner. LRC does not happen much in Saudi Arabia or Dubai if you talk with Filipinos or any other such people there. I was very happy to be able to speak with Thais in Thai and Filipinos in Tagalog and even Puerto Ricans in Spanish when I was in Saudi. It was great.

It is the same if you travel in ,say, Costa Rica and you meet a German or a Japanese who is also traveling there. More often than not, they will not behave with LRC.

[nomadder]

I wouldn't think there's too much difference in English levels in Tokyo and Osaka.

The weirdest thing can happen when travelling through Latin America. Germans and other Europeans are so intent on learning Spanish that they will speak to you in Spanish only, even if their Spanish is very bad. Anywhere else in the world they would speak to you in high level English.

[Perpetual Traveller]

I don't think that's just Latin America, here in Paris I, and most of my fellow French students, try to speak in French because that is the whole point of being here, not to work on our English. I'll admit that from time to time we do switch to English for the sake of expediency but there are a couple of people in the class who don't speak much English so we try to avoid it for their sake as well.

[Gregor]

It's funny you'd say that about Paris, PT.
I was there for a few days once (I've been to other areas of France as well, though, and had similar experiences to those I had in Paris).
I found it very difficult to find English speakers, BUT! Quite different from what other Americans have told me about the French, they were more than happy to help me try to communicate.
(I'd heard that if you can't speak French in Paris, and PERFECT French, then you simply don't exist.)
I used English. Nothing. I tried Spanish - SLIGHT glimmer of recognition. So I'd write my message out, and the recipient wrote what he thought was the gist, in French, I made my comparisions, and together we decided that we understood each other.
It worked a treat.
It worked so well that I was able to take my intermediate Spanish and turn it into pidgin (spoken) French for the remainder of my stay.
And everyone, everywhere, was just ticked pink to have the opportunity to communicate with a foreigner in such an unusual way.
The French, in short, were AWESOME.

[Perpetual Traveller]

Very cool Gregor! I've travelled elsewhere in France but I've only lived in Paris so thought I should restrict myself to rambling about what I have the most experience with.

Actually what gets me into trouble is that my accent is far better than my vocabulary so people hear me, think I obviously have a good grasp of the language and they're off at lightening speed while I stand there trying to get a moment in which to say 'doucement s'il vous plait'

PT