Job Discussion Forums

[Jyulee]

Here in Madrid it is expected of you to speak Spanish, I have certainly never noticed any "how dare these foreigners try and speak our language" attitudes here - in fact, quite the opposite!

Despite my frequent butchering of the Spanish language while trying to get things done, Madrile�ans assume that as I am in Spain I will speak Spanish, and they talk to me (seemingly) as they would a Spanish person. I expect this is as most foreigners who�ve lived here more than a few months (and plenty stay here for decades) pick up Spanish fairly easily. Although I�m not certain, it seems that a lot of teachers in (say) China stay for relatively less time, and have less opportunities (or straight out obligation) to speak the local lingo. Maybe the people here expect foreigners to speak Spanish as most of them do, to some degree or another.

Interestingly, the Madrile�os I have met seem far more damning about the Spanish that Latin American immigrants (and people from the south) use than my own pathetic ramblings, using "ustedes" instead of "vosotros" is "estupido", and "therbetha" (cerveza) is how it�s said, goddammit. My Colombian flatmates disagree, but anyway...

I can see how language can bond with identity - for a Japanese person to speak with a broad cockney accent (for example) would seem strange - unless he�s from London, I wouldn�t expect him to speak like he is. I wouldn�t resent it though - in fact I think it would sound rather quaint!

Just my 2c

[thelmadatter]

We have a local teacher here with a mixed British-Mexican accent in English. We "colonists" (Americans and Canadians) think his accent is rather hot!

Which reminds me... the only linguistic hangup I seem to get here is about accents. From time to time I get this concern from students (and some teachers) that they have to improve their accent. They are perfectly understandable! So I have to keep reminding them that accent really doesnt matter - its fluency and vocabulary that is far more important. But folks here seem very sensitive about foreign accents in that they notice and comment on them very easily. And many here imitate mine very well .... too well!

[Justin Trullinger]

Hi again,

[Cdaniels]

[thelmadatter]

Cdaniels - unfortunately with your example, there is no way to know if the librarians' reaction to the student's English was due to pronunciation or the fact that it was "broken" (non-fluent and/or poor grammar)

The bulk of accent is not pronunciation but rather rhythm. (I know how to make all the sounds of the Spanish language but I still have a pronounced accent.) Both are extremely hard to change to "native" and require a lot more practice than it is worth for the results. I agree that sometimes a very very strong accent can get in the way of understanding but the folks I have the toughes time understanding are native English speakers from places like northern England/Scotland and India! And the reason I have problems is because I am not accustomed to these accents.

[Fatcat]

This reminds me of a time when I was renting a house from a lady (in the US) and this guy was in my yard looking around. I was moving out soon so I figured he was checking out the house for himself. I asked if I could help him and he mumbled something in English. He had a Spanish accent so I asked him back in Spanish if he needed any help. He responded, "I can speak English." Well, no not really if I can't understand you. The whole conversation was a mess with him thinking he could speak English well enough to be understood.

On the flip side, when I was in Spain I would always get quizzical looks when I asked a question. I knew I was pronouncing it right (at least in my mind) and they would repeat it when they finally got it and it sounded the same to me. Eventually I learned to drop sounds, etc. to sound more like a native and things were easier. It just takes time to get a feel of an accent instead of just spitting out words from a book.

[Perpetual Traveller]

Accents are a funny thing. As a general rule even native English speakers are hard put to figure out where mine is from (basically all over the place!) but for the most part I think I have a pretty good ear for them. I can tell most of the regional Australian accents apart, something a lot of Australians struggle to do and while I may not be able to tell you which is which I can hear the differences between most of the American and British accents.

However, although I can usually tell an American or English non-native speaker of French I have a lot more trouble with those who have Spanish as a mother tongue, I guess maybe this is because the languages/accents are closer but I do wonder if I would have an easier time picking it if I had more experience with Spanish...?

PT

[Justin Trullinger]

I agree, thelmadatter, that rythm (sentence stress, word stress, and many other factors) is a main part of what we call accent. But, like pronunciation, these things can be taught, learned, practiced, and improved.

And while I agree that accent, like most other aspects of a foreign language, is unlikely to ever be perfect, I do think it's worth improving.

Regards,
Justin

[Gregor]

I get the impression that Mr. Trullinger isn't picking out accent as the one thing to focus on; simply that in the bigger picture, it shouldn't be ignored, and I very much agree.
I also agree that a student is being unreasonably demanding when he/she insists on an American or a British teacher for a class lasting all of two hours per week. If a student is going to develop a regional accent, then he/she is going to have to go to that region, or else practice with a LOT of materials from that region, i.e. tons of BBC ESL material, or whatever.

In China, of the few students who do become fluent (and as rare as they are, we hear them ALL THE TIME because they are paraded out onto the English language TV station), they do seem to have specifically British or N.American accents (rarely anything more specific than that). It's impressive, and I'm not sure how they come by this. But obviously, these are people with a particular talent for picking up languages.
I remember teaching TOEFL in Jakarta. I did that for about two years. And to get to know the students, I'd ask where they were from, you know the drill. And the VERY BEST students - the ones with recognizable accents and perfect syntax, idiom, and everything - all had the same story: "I NEVER studied English. I just watch Friends/East Enders/lots of movies/etc. and I picked it up."
That's just jaw-dropping.

As for my own accent, in Spanish, it's laughable. I hate hearing my spoken Spanish on tape. It's dreadful. But in Chinese, I actually LIKE the sound of my voice. Once I got the tones kinda/sorta under control, I started sounding OK. Strange.

Back to the original point - I don't doubt the sincerity of the people who insist that they have encountered LRC. Though I have seen it MANY TIMES in China, in EVERY instance, it turned out to be the speaker's inability to make himself understood that was the WHOLE problem (remember - in China, even a native speaker from one area can have difficulty in this regard when travelling in a different area of the same language).
I have never, ever, anywhere in the world, encountered real LRC, even when I was fully expecting to (such as in France). I have never encountered a single person who has ever shown anything but delight that I was at least making an effort in his language.
The only exception to this is when I'm trying to practice my Chinese(or whatever) with a native speaker who has an upper-intermediate or more command of English - in THAT case, maybe the person just isn't in the mood to do an intercambio and just wants to take care of business and be on his/her way, and that's fair enough. And that is the closest I have ever come.
If I DID encounter LRC, I think I would just consider that person unnecessary in my life and move on. I mean, that just goes against the whole idea of peaceful coexistance and mutual understanding.

As for the professor who thought that Spanish is polluted by non-native speakers, has anyone given that any thought about this with our OWN language? I mean, English is developing its own different (so far, more or less mutually intelligible) dialects in areas where it is NOT a first or even an official language. Does this bother anyone?
(It does not bother me in the least - in fact, I find it quite interesting. I just thought I'd see what y'all had to say.)

[Perpetual Traveller]

Something that occurs to me is that although English, or any other language, can be 'polluted' it is unlikely that in coming years it will ever develop as many separate dialects as it has throughout history. The reason for this is, rather obviously, is that it is very rare for civilisations these days to have no contact with the outside world. Communications technology is continuously increasing and improving and it is most likely that at some point media will reach even the most isolated communties. Therefore, while accents and regional variations will no doubt be evident there is very little likelihood of people being unintelligable to others.

But really when you look at how much languages borrow from each other, the idea of any language being pure and without pollution is laughable!

PT

[chechevitsa]

I think most english purists are more worried about threats from within the language than from foreign influence. tying together the original topic and Cdaniels's point that class is an important consideration, I've occasionally had people tune out what I'm saying in my native english because they don't believe that something meaningful could come from the mind of someone who doesn't capitalise her sentences, or who narrates dialogue with tags like "and then I was like 'you can't really use logic in matters of belief!'"

[GabeKessel]

To return to the original topic- I was once at a Thai restaurant in Kuwait. I speak Thai fluently and came to eat and also watch some Thai music shows and soap operas.

The Thai TV was on; I was watching a newscast and waiting for my food. They had a guy who was obviously a new employee as I had never seen him before. He suddenly came out of the kitchen and, without looking at me, walked to the TV set, changed the channel to the English Language CNN and walked out of the room just as quickly.

I took me a long time to realize that he did it to make things comfortable for me. Farangs do not speak Thai, you know so, they have to accomodate us.

It was a very strange experience to me.

[teacheringreece]

[GabeKessel]

[teacheringreece]