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English made (too) easy?
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject: English made (too) easy? Reply with quote

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/viewtopic.php?p=21303
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Jon Taylor



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I have missed the boat here.......your point is ?
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Taylor wrote:
Maybe I have missed the boat here.......your point is ?


Jon, note that I didn't initially post that on the Japan forum, but the Applied Linguistics one; it's therefore perhaps more concerned with grammar/language and (derived) methodology than many who frequent the "Job" Discussion/International forums would like (e.g. I see that most of your posts seem to concern money this and money that - perhaps you are more interested in money itself and what it can buy than actually wanting to appear to earn/deserve it?* Cool ).

Not wanting to be too confrontational here, just responding in kind to your post, which certainly has even less to say than you seem to think mine does.

I guess if a discussion does develop, the AL forum would be more the place to have it (even though I am describing my current job as an AET in a Japanese JHS).

Basically, Jon, I am asking if people have similar experiences in their job, whether it bothers them at all, and if so, what they think the answer might be from whatever perspective (but especially in terms of goals/expectations of learning > appropriate kind (in terms of linguistic complexity/realism/functionality etc) of target language (what is appropriate other than real and functional, though?) > "successful" activities etc etc).

If we don't ever "need" to ask these kind of questions we are probably either already working in an ideal environment or (as I've implied above) we maybe just don't care. Twisted Evil

Anyway, I've added a bit to the linked post, so there are a few more questions in it than there were previously. Perhaps you can re-read it and get back to us, Jon, if you spot something there or in the above that helps clarify things for you and which makes you feel you actually might have something of any substance to contribute. Shocked Wink Laughing Very Happy

*Here's something that might get you all responding: there are some JTEs who might deserve much of their wages for being at the school and always "there" in general for the kids, but who would not, in my opinion, deserve quite such a wage if it were linked to results (that's not to say that I want to pressure the kids and in turn the teachers any more than they are already, it's just, if some of these teachers had to teach e.g. JFL to motivated and demanding students, they'd soon flounder. The obvious objection to this argument is that JHS English and EFL, JFL etc are entirely different areas, but that rather ignores the potential that an improved syllabus might have in raising levels of extrinsic motivation. Put simply, although some JHS English classes are "fun" for the students, are they really as much fun as they could be? Are they motivating? Do they build a sense of real understanding and excitement in terms of increased knowledge and actual ability in the students? And will it ever be possible for the students to have and make some fun for THEMSELVES with and through their own speaking English? Even those who have the intrinsic motivation necessary to reach an appreciable level (more or less by themselves, through their own efforts) do not always become quite the speakers of English that they could (otherwise) be (as anyone who's ever had a conversation with somewhat below-average JTEs will be able to attest!).
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mrjohndub



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 198
Location: Saitama, Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to be concerned with your own teaching methodology, as far as I'm concerned. What do you expect to accomplish posting about JTE's here? Or are you just griping?
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrjohndub wrote:
You need to be concerned with your own teaching methodology, as far as I'm concerned. What do you expect to accomplish posting about JTE's here? Or are you just griping?


Me, gripe?! Never! Laughing Wink

I AM "concerned" about my own teaching methodology, but how often does the AET's knowledge get much of a look-in in many (most?) so-called "team-teaching" situations?

What I find tends to happen is that not enough time is made to discuss things, and if I ever presume to do anything that is AT ALL ambitious off of my own bat, all I get is comments about the students don't know this, they can't do that etc.

I don't think it is or should be my job to always dumb things down to the point where I lose sight of whatever functions the language might conceivably have, or pepper my speech with so many easy words that the class effectively becomes an exercise in students checking off already known or gairaigo words and cultural items in their minds.

Of course a lot of English is always going to be high-frequency words used again and again, but this resistance to ever contextualizing grammar with a few possibly unknown words or things, or presenting realistic and fresh functions for slightly less controlled range of language is I believe impeding genuine learning in Japanese schools. You must admit, if the JTEs came out of their little comfort zones a bit more often, students would ultimately stand to benefit (even if it made things a little tougher at first). Basically I just want to see the range of teaching options increased, and potentially better and more interesting activities be given a chance...

You don't have to engage with what I said in the linked post (I appreciate it might seem like a bit of a vent at a quick glance-through), but I have to say I would appreciate it if people would at least respond or reply to what I've subsequently "had to" say and/or reformulate here. If you reckon I don't have a point, fine, but you might convince me (and perhaps others) if you gave a few reasons or counterpoints rather than seeming to more or less say 'You shouldn't have posted this, you have no point'. Doing that is just lazy (and bad manners). Do YOU have a point, Jon and john?

OK, let me put it like this: do you think that (linguistically, based on the examples I've quoted) those JTEs are giving good, sound, even strong lessons? Or do you not feel qualified to offer an opinion one way or the other? Even if that is the case, it would still be interesting to hear how you teach or would teach this area of the language. Come on now, don't be shy. Cool
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mrjohndub



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 198
Location: Saitama, Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't think they're (by and large) giving good lessons. It's just a handjob. I have students who have a better grasp of English than the JTE's. That's why I'm proposing that you give it a rest. Nothing's going to change. And you have zero chance of impacting this problem. No offense, but get over it.

Is it your hope that your students 'actually' learn English in schools? That's not going to happen. They have bigger fish to fry. The only way they'll really learn it is to continue past school for many years, or, better yet, to be immersed abroad.

Where are you from? Do the kids in schools there really learn more than a taste--a smattering--of a foreign language? ...Even in three or four years (or more) of it? I learned French in elementary school, middle school and high school in the US. I excelled grade-wise in my classes. I can't speak hardly a lick of French now. I can understand it fairly well spoken. I can read it like a champ. But the only way I learned any actual languages (Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Hebrew) was to go abroad and immerse, coupled with intensive study (read: that was my primary goal in life, to learn this or that language).

Don't beat yourself up over something that's outside of your control, buddy.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give it a rest, eh? (I didn't know I'd been going on too much, at least not on the Japan forums recently). Same could be said for you (re. your glib way with words)...that being said, I appreciate the more substantial response. Wink

I fully realize that students at JHS age the world over, hell also SHS age, generally don't learn and/or retain much of whatever languages they study (I was and still am crap at French, only really learnt a language - Chinese - when I was an adult and decided that was something that I wanted to do), and believe it or not, I am probably one of the last people pressuring them or forming unrealistic expectations of them; I really do just want them to enjoy the classes, after which any learning is simply a nice bonus.

This doesn't mean, however, that I stop taking an interest in the subject (the thinking comes in handy for those jobs in which I am expected to perform in more than just the proverbial talking white monkey capacity), or don't continue to find it puzzling that JTEs take what seems to be very little interest in improving their own English if not the class's. Relative pronouns are essential meat-and-potatoes stuff, but what is served up in JHSs here is a dog's dinner, the linguistic equivalent of Pedigree Chum (8 out of 10 JTEs recommend it). I just find it a little disappointing that there is so little idealism or interest in professional development (and for non-natives especially that unfortunately must include continuing to study the language).

More importantly, though, I really do feel that "untold damage" is being done if no effort is made to make English cognitively compelling through trying to foster more genuine (i.e. actual) communication at the linguistic (not just grunts, barks, yelps, quacks and farts) level. It's at school that the rot begins - how many Japanese adults have you met who can't speak English, or don't really like or care for it, or who (even if they can speak some and don't mind doing so that much) still have a low level and an even lower estimation of their ability to ever improve (then, there are those who try hard but just aren't there yet, even if they think they are) - 'English is a difficult/illogical/silly language that I just don't get'. We probably have quite a few JTEs to thank for this: they filled the students' younger heads with no shortage of myths and reams of exceptions or alternative exponents on the one hand, whilst making sure that whatever 'useful', "eikaiwa" language that did get taught was of little actual use beyond enabling the adult to do no more than say hi in a coffee shop before falteringly ordering a ko-hi (there's little chance they'll understand much of what the foreigner also in the queue says to them).
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spotted a contradiction of sorts in my argument: nice JTE, generally co-operative, fairly amused students, a reasonable sentence or two from each side when they create them from scratch...how can this amount to "untold damage"?

OK, in that class the kids haven't yet and presumably still aren't gonna grow to hate English, but this is probably an exception rather than the rule (then there is the fact that most students in the better schools are polite, obedient, try to muck in and help rather than hinder etc in short, they are hacking it)...and this still doesn't answer the question about functionality (relative pronouns are not around explicitly for joining sentences; students appreciate things more when they cohere naturally well, and to me as a teacher that implies that I need to find the most kick-ass examples I can to render clear, powerful and memorable conversational contexts. Little of what the above JTEs did tells us much about real talk; their stuff has 'Grammar exercises' written, possibly in red ink, all over it).

It's perhaps easier to appreciate the power of a good example or two with the passive (active and passive are alternative construals of supposedly the "same" situation - they do NOT communicate "the same thing"), and where a textbook (somewhat unhelpfully) presents them as equally valid options/ways to proceed communicating "something" (which must lead to the student thinking, 'WTF?! That still doesn't tell me why, why I should say this as opposed to that' - the book lacks enough 'verbs that are often used in the passive' info for a student to extrapolate on their own), the teacher can really only invoke principles of theme vs rheme etc ('Here the textbook writer has made A begin with this rather than that, and here it is the other way around. I personally find this ONE the more convinving/probable, because it begins with the natural, most obvious subject...' (teacher then switches to clearer examples such as 'My dad got mugged last night' vs '?Three men...')).

I can't claim to know what students are thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if with relative pronouns, they end up almost having to go through or at least bypass a stage of "sentence combining", even when they are clear about what other function the (single) sentence they are actually producing has...
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mrjohndub



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 198
Location: Saitama, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
Give it a rest, eh? (I didn't know I'd been going on too much, at least not on the Japan forums recently). Same could be said for you (re. your glib way with words)...that being said, I appreciate the more substantial response.


Glib way with words? Do you care to give me an example of this, or are you just making an idle and desperate insult?
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, your first post was pretty dismissive (and your comment about me needing to be concerned about my own methodology made little sense, given that in extrapolating from the JTEs' specific methods to a consideration of approach in general, I am obviously coming from and heading to somewhere in terms of my own methodology: try looking up "Reflective teaching" or somesuch phrase, you might learn something), but I always try hard to not take offence (not that I don't note what people say and ponder their intentions).

As for glibness, I think many would agree with me that all of the following exhibit it to a greater or lesser degree:

'griping' (debatable, and part of a rhetorical question no less)

'handjob' (admittedly gets the point across very effectively that you are way to cool to really want to discuss anything in any appreciable depth)

'give it a rest' (Where? In my job? On Dave's? Shut down my thought processes entirely? What, exactly?)

'get over it' (Please tell me how to, oh Enlightened One. Will more pay for less work ease my suffering? Should I forsake Japan and the kawaii kiddies here for Tibet or somewhere less "troubling"? Go hide in a hermitage or something? I would sometimes like to do precisely that, but I need to earn a living and my Japanese colleagues and employer do unfortunately have expectations, if not exactly of themselves, then at least of me (although I would argue these are often the wrong kind of expectations, especially when it is simply assumed they are a given for the AET too, who is a native speaker let's not forget)

3 strikes and you're out. I count 4.

I appreciate the last sentence you used in that longer post might be meant to comfort me and/or show that you empathize, but it is still a little patronizing and doesn't smack of professionalism. Are you a quitter by nature, John? (There, that's me being glib for a change. How do you like them apples!). Do you actually "enjoy" (=really not mind) teaching your (their?) 'handjob' lessons that much? I suppose we'll just have to accept that you genuinely just do not care (or are acting your best as if you don't). And where do all the burnt-out teachers hang out at night, doing their best not to talk shop, yet therefore never quite recovering from putting their minds elsewhere all the time (=not only during but also after working hours)?

Maybe Dave's, eh! It's quite often full of people who seem to like nothing better than swaggering into the saloon, doing the literary equivalent of spilling someone's drink, then trying to take a swing at the guy for asking the spiller to stump up, all before running back out into the night whooping with guns-ablazing at nothing in particular, which leaves everyone (all of whom are unharmed and relatively unfazed by the behaviour they just witnessed) to get back to the enjoyable business of having an intelligent conversation.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrjohndub wrote:
Where are you from? Do the kids in schools there really learn more than a taste--a smattering--of a foreign language? ...Even in three or four years (or more) of it? I learned French in elementary school, middle school and high school in the US. I excelled grade-wise in my classes. I can't speak hardly a lick of French now...


I'm from the UK, and the foreign language education I received was nowhere near the scale and ambitousness of that in Japan (if only because no FL had or yet has quite the same status at the moment as English, which means a variety of FLs are offered to native English speakers at school; in the UK the choice is usually limited to European languages or classical ones like Latin, but Japanese and now Chinese are quite popular and in demand); and the "teachers" I had were abysmal (they're lucky the inspectors never came round) - they basically spoke only in English and just chit-chatted with us, so they never actually attempted to really TEACH us anything in five whole years!!

How do you feel your French education in the US compares to English education in Japan, John? Better, worse or about the same?

I just find it intriguing that the approaches they adopt in the schools here often seem designed to thwart the apparent ambitions (but we all know about the need to pander to the uni entrance exams despite the trumpeting of "communication" in lesson plans...although I've heard that in practice this requirement for university admission is often waived because of the inability of many students to pass the English section).

Actually, students can end up with a reasonable passive understanding of writen English, so in some ways the six years they spend studying it isn't totally ineffective...

But as I've said before, in speech at least most students seem adrift in their grasp of the functions/functional effects and/or differences of various phrases (many of which they simply don't know but could do with knowing), and the majority it seems do not remember English ("Grammar"!) with fondness or appreciation (that is, a glimmering of real understanding).

It may well be that the only real answer is to go abroad and immerse in a native English culture, but that seems to be a cop-out to me: I think they could be doing more than twiddling their thumbs in senior high school (the 3 years that are prior to possible travel etc). There must be quite a few students who like and really need to be taught more and better, but who just don't have their needs met until it's sink or swim time in the big immersion pool of America, Canada, Aus, the UK etc.

Although I didn't study Chinese at school (I did a postgrad diploma), there is still a parallel here: I for one can't imagine what it would have been like for me if I had arrived in China with an even shakier grasp of the language (e.g. What would I have done if I hadn't been able to convince the police to give me a new residency slip, that some visa official had lost? My visa might not have been renewed in time), or in turn come to Japan without being able to at least read street signs or bills etc (I've not really studied much spoken Japanese yet).
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have students who have a better grasp of English than the JTE's.
Yeah, me, too, but they are almost all returnees or people who have lived overseas for extended periods, not just a year. By and large, my high school students graduate barely able to make a coherent sentence, and this is the norm all over Japan.

fluffyhamster,
You've offered advice to me before in the Teachers' Forums, and I appreciate it. All I can say about "glibness" is that you DO tend to be a bit wordy. No offense, just a fact. I'm pretty wordy, too.

As to your main point, I'm sure you're finding out that many JTE's teach exactly the way yours does. Is it wrong? From the westerners' viewpoint, yes, it often is. Will you be able to change it? A little, but only after a long time of interaction, and you'll have to compromise a bit, too, but realize that the JTE will compromise only a little because of the nature of the education beast in Japan.

Tough it out. Be tactful. Be as prepared as possible. Good luck.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya Glenski, good to hear from you again.

Yeah my posts are often too long, but here's to hoping somebody somewhere finds something in them that others perhaps haven't seen and feels like responding, even if it would ultimately be just an "academic" discussion that we'd have here.

I know things don't change quickly in Japan, and HONESTLY am NOT pushing hard at my present school(s) - if anything I'm under little or no pressure. I'm certainly not an evangelist for your average "Communicative" approach...I'm kind of wary of taking up any of the JTEs' time, actually...

The only thing I do have to do is, like I said, kiss ass, nod obediently and try (not) to look (too) thoughtful whenever I am offered those "pearls" of "wisdom" (it's hardly 'pearls before absolute swine', is it, methinks). Cool

All that really matters is, (I "know") the JTEs are "trying" their "hardest", and I myself am trying harder still (in my own way), and that's all there is to it, I guess. The only "answer" there ultimately might be in all of this is to not have team-teaching at all, and leave native and non-native teachers to do their own thing (in seperate institutions no doubt) in "perfect ignorance" of the other.Twisted Evil Very Happy

BTW I've been in Japan now for a total of over six years. Not that long, but not a short time either! Wink


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Revenant
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to through out this main question:

Is right for concepts and viewpoints of "what is the best" from your standpoint(cultural upbringing, viewpoints on education, viewpoints on language etc) to be superimposed upon the culture and education models found in the context of your frustrations Fluffy?

How do the JTE percieve it? How does school administration perceive it? How does mombusho look at it? How does the culture as a whole percieve it?

I think once you look at that you might see something/some things differently. That isn't to say that improvements or suggestions for change shouldn't be encouraged (I mean what culture doesn't want to improve on its education system?), but it is vitally important to frame it withing the context and function of the society it is from?

What education models used by one country are for the purpose of producing citizens that can function within that country. When the education system is not truly(mis-perceptions aside) serving the society in that capacity, then reforms are enacted... just as they have been in Japan, the US etc etc. It is a constant and ever changing situation born of the intrinsic understanding that the society is in an ever progressing flux and its education must adapt to fullfill the need.

Cross cultural critques sometimes miss this but I think its something to consider.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya Rev!

You're adding complexities that for me can wait till after the dust from all the linguistic syllabus sifting has settled. Obviously there is a wider world outside the classroom, and the AET has to fit into all that certainly before and after the bell goes; however, I can't ultimately think though of why the English language (model) and any derived activities used inside the classroom should not be more accurate and involving than they sometimes are, and if an AET admits defeat in their own mind (they can admit defeat in the class preparation and execution, play along to get along etc, OK?), they stop developing, IMHO.

But I appreciate your comments about the ever-evolving yet often slow nature of educational reform...wow, what "exciting" times us expats teaching in Japan are living through! Laughing

I know a lot of you guys come to Dave's just to unwind and have a bit of a laugh, and that's A-okay with me (I really enjoy some of the great jokes that people post), but with respect, this board is not full of twitchy JTEs so why all the hush-hushing and poo-pooing of more academic/linguistic discussion (for those who might be interested) by those who profess to be so disinterested?

Perhaps I should confine myself to the Teacher forums, I know...they're generally more civil (and dare I say intelligent) there. (That wasn't directed at you, Glenski or Rev! And only half-directed at you, John! It's Jon that I want to give both barrels to LOL).
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