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azarashi sushi
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 562
Location: Shinjuku
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:45 pm Post subject: Non-socializing with students policy |
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Hi Guys,
I've just been looking at contracts recently and I noticed one had a non-socialising with students policy ... It wasn't NOVA.
I've never socialised with students (except on the rare occaision) nor ever really wanted to, however when the company actually makes a point of putting it in their contract, I start to worry.
What do others think?
A.S.
Last edited by azarashi sushi on Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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This is one topic that has been done to death. Just do a search here on "socializing" and you'll find half a dozen old posts. Too bad an even older one wasn't retained (perhaps before the new forum format was created), because it was huge.
What exactly did you mean to discuss about this?
1. Such a clause is wrong/right, and why?
2. How to get around such a clause?
3. What experience people have had with such situations?
4. Whether school staff even enforce such a clause?
5. Repercussions from breaking such a rule?
6. etc. |
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C76
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Non-socializing with students policy |
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Glenski,
I, for one, haven't had the chance to respond to this topic. I'm sure if it's a problem a moderator will come along and close this thread.
azarashi...
| azarashi sushi wrote: |
What do others think?
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I think it's an interesting issue.  I understand why the company might have a no-socializing policy. Perhaps they are concerned about avoiding difficulties that have come up in the past...Such as student-teacher affairs (which might have turned into ugly sexual harassment cases). Or, they could merely be concerned about maintaining a "professional" image. Some people believe that being professional is synonymous with being socially distant. I tend to disagree.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with chatting with your students...Provided your behavior remains within certain limits. It's a matter of common sense.  Sadly, certain teachers don't seem to have any. I think that's why some schools are drawing the line. |
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Wolf
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
What exactly did you mean to discuss about this?
1. Such a clause is wrong/right, and why? |
Well, such a clause is in voilation of Japanese law, which states that employers can't dictate who we socialize with on our off time (check your local union branch for the exact law quote.) Take the example of the eikaiwas, where many of the teachers and students are in their 20s and single. They are also adults capable of making their own decisions in life. If the school is worried about their image, then they could always hire professional teachers to begin with. No one held a gun to their head and made them hire all 23 year old recent grads (I'm not saying that all young people can't control themselves - I'm just saying that when you hire 5000 younguns a year - and you're most stringent requirement is the candidate be alive - you're bound to get a few loose cannons into the mix.)
| Glenski wrote: |
| 2. How to get around such a clause? |
Be discreet and mature. Dating a student and having a proper relationship ought not be a problem. Don't take her/him to the gaijin bars. Don't take her/him to a company apartment where you have roomates. If we're talking about an eikaiwa, then odds are one or the other will be done with the place in a matter of months, so giving up the guy/gal of your dreams due to such a policy is an infringement on our privacy. If all else fails, there's always The Law (I can recall one case of NOVA getting smacked with the law over this and backing down.)
| Glenski wrote: |
| 3. What experience people have had with such situations? |
At my second job, one co - worker's wife was a former student of the school. My boss ran around - or at least flirted in the middle of crowded rooms (our school had such a policy.) At NOVA I met this nice girl, but as I was destitute, and living abroad for the first time with no money (saving for an apartment, paying student loans, and studying at a juku), I couldn't afford the off chance of being fired - even temporarily. So I missed out on meeting a nice young lady. 
| Glenski wrote: |
| 4. Whether school staff even enforce such a clause? |
My boss at NOVA - a trianer of 4 years standing; a guy with a wife, 2 kids, a TESL cert, and fluent Japanese skills - got fired by his boss (the AAM) over this. Hence my cowerdice as outlined above.
My boss at the second job said it'd only be a problem if the student complained.
| Glenski wrote: |
| 5. Repercussions from breaking such a rule? |
Usually it's a really stern warning. Maybe a fine. They could just give you the boot the first time, but I doubt that most managers would miss such a chance to browbeat you and give you all the crap classes as "punishment" until you quit. I'm guessing here though. You could always bring reprocussions on them for firing/disciplining you unfairly. (Either be rich or go through a union here. This is a very, very rocky road. Most people don't walk it.)
I hate it. It's insulting to any adult who takes teaching seriously. It's illegal. In my job, I'm allowed/ encouraged to soclialize with my students (I even live in an apartment building next to student dorms.) My students learn more from me than my NOVA students ever did - simply because of the nicer enviornment.
Sales people at most private schools use the idea of sex to sell lessons anyway. Last year on the Tokyo JR I saw a GABA poster with the uber-Aryan male handcuffed to the uber-Japanese woman. A couple of years ago the ECC posters offered an uber-Aryan male standing very close to a Japanese woman. At a distance usually reserved for intimate couples (I'd never let the Chinese police let me see me standing that close to a Chinese girl. - even if she were my wife.) I overheard the sales staff at work say how handsome the gaijin guy teachers were (we all had gfs except me), and how pretty the women were (two married, the other two with bfs.) Languge schools don't have any moral high ground here. |
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Felix
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:27 am Post subject: |
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The fact is, lots of male teachers go to Japan with the intention of getting laid. And, yes, these are fully qualified teachers - just horney ones.
I can understand the companies wanting to protect their reputation. The last thing they want is people saying "oh, watch out for those NOVA teachers, they try to *beep* their own students". People talk of being adults, and old enough to make their own decisions. But if you're dating a current student than that's simply not professional. It brings a certain element to the class that isn't a positive one. For God's sake, choose another Japanese girl NOT in your class!!! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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You guys seem to be focusing on only one aspect of socializing. Sex.
Many eikaiwas try to prohibit socializing because they don't want the teachers to get close enough to the students to "steal" them away for private lessons, thereby reducing the time and money the students could devote to the eikaiwa. |
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azarashi sushi
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 562
Location: Shinjuku
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the responses guys ...
It was a general question so I'm grateful for all feedback.
As I mentioned before, I've never dated any of my students nor really socialized with them ... There has never been any problem with stealing students or sexual harrasment either in any of the places I've worked. So, I was just a little surprised ...
Although, I can understand the reasons why a company may include that clause.
My main question was, I guess, does this raise a red flag? Is it unreasonable and is it a sign of worse things to come?
I realise that obviously this is going to vary greatly from company to company.
Thanks once again.
A.S. |
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Wolf
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Felix wrote: |
| The fact is, lots of male teachers go to Japan with the intention of getting laid. And, yes, these are fully qualified teachers - just horney ones. |
Do you really think so? All/most/at least a majority of the teachers that go to Japan via JET/the Big 4 have at least a degree plus a cert and experience (these being the biggest employers)? I haven't met them all, and my knowledge of the working world of Japan is almost a year out of date, but I would have bet money on that not being true. As to the first statement, well that's true of many. There's nothing I can do, and I don't feel like addressing it.
| Felix wrote: |
I can understand the companies wanting to protect their reputation. The last thing they want is people saying "oh, watch out for those NOVA teachers, they try to *beep* their own students". People talk of being adults, and old enough to make their own decisions. But if you're dating a current student than that's simply not professional. It brings a certain element to the class that isn't a positive one. For God's sake, choose another Japanese girl NOT in your class!!! |
First point re beeping the students: The Japanese already say that. Many of them do. Listen to them in the subways. Talk to them and ask.
Second point re professionalism of dating students: If you work for NOVA you can't date a student that might not be in your class tomorrow. They can transfer you here or there, she can come over to the voice room at your school, the management doesn't care if she's in your class or not it's if you have a teacher's contract and she has a student's contract that they get all pissy. NOVA does not equal professional in any way, shape or form. Max student contract is for 3 years (although many sighn shorter ones). How many teachers stay longer than a year? It's not a majority. In such an enviornment any given student you teach will not be your "student" for long.
Also, if you were like me and didn't speak Japanese perfectly when you got to Japan, then who you can talk to might be really limited. I didn't know my way around (and I believe this was typical) so the only women I met who spoke English and were not married yet were my students.
also Re: Stealing students. Yes, they might worry about this. Getting your money back from NOVA once you've paid is famously difficult for students. Even if they stopped coming, they might not get reimbursed for all their unused lessons. Don't forget - a three year contract is for 600 lessons. So that's 600 lessons over about 1100 days, at about 1200 to 1300 per lesson. (author's note my info might be out of date now - but this is the way it was not too long ago.) Do the math - that's one lesson every other day give or take. Constantly. For three years. No holidays. No week in Tailand here, week in Hawaii there. How many NOVA students are going to plan out a portion of their lives that long around NOVA lessons? They don't. I shudder to imagine the amount of money that they make from selling lessons that expire before the company needs to provide them. Someone mentioned stealing? All 5000 or so NOVA teachers each stealing four students (who have by definition already spent many a lesson ticket) would be a drop in the bucket methinks. Urban Japan is not rural China (trust me on this, guys and gals). NOVA students can relatively easily have contact with "neitibu supiikazu," as we were called in the NOVA system, outside a classroom. NOVA doesn't have the English monopoly over their lives they might have had back in 1981. They're going to lose money this way no-socializing policy or no (Geos teachers, Aeon, JET, universities, GIs, businessmen/women, people who have non teacher related work, foreign students etc abound and numbers increase.)
Sorry, but when I was plotting my escape from NOVA back in 2000, I pulled a serious Sun Tsu and knew my enemy (and indeed they decided one day for a reason I have yet to fathom to be my enemy - but that has no bearing here.) |
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ruggedtoast
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 81
Location: tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Some NOVA teachers are taking nova to court saying that the rule is an infrigement on their human rights and also racist as it doesnt apply to the japanese staff.
NOVA arent too impressed and are still sacking anyone who breaks the socialisation rule if its brought to their attemtion. Usually this happens if a student or someone else grasses on you.
Usually happenes when someone dates a stude and then dumps them, student phones NOVA to complain and/or say that they dont want to be allocated to that teacher anymore as its ambarrassing for them. Nova sacks you.
Illegal in many places but ok in Japan apparently where the boundary between work and home is somewhat unclear (nonexistent?) as far as the establishment is concerned. |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:15 am Post subject: |
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I`m not so sure Nova is being unfair in the non socialisation clause. I have friends who worked at Nova and they told me about teachers who used students for sex and then dumped them. It all became pretty nasty and I would argue those teachers should never have been using their position to date students.
Maybe other guys won`t agree but I think it`s usually (not always) done unethically so I can understand Nova`s policy. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't know NOVA was being sued over its nonsocialization policy. It'll be interesting to see how the courts handle it. Does anybody know of a Web site that reports on it? |
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