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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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 Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| callmesim wrote: |
| Oh good. I understand what you mean then and I agree. Attitude is what counts. I'll be honest, I'm going over mainly for the experience itself but I'll take the job seriously. I've heard too many people going over and treating the job itself with contempt. I don't understand why they go over in the first place when they act like that. |
Several reasons:
1. MONEY
2. WOMEN.
3. TRAVEL.
No other job skills or talents except the ability to speak English.
no commitments such as wife or kids.
no major debts except student loans
no idea what they want to do for a couple of years.
Still young enough to do that stuff without seriously damaging their career. Young enough being under 30, though fogies do work and live here. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
| I don't understand all the animosity. I don't think it's an age gap thing though there may some differences in values which are related to the life stages we sit on. As for the OPs point, it's very culturally subjective. The Japanese kill themselves at work for money to provide their families with stability. If they don't work those ridiculous hours they will find themselves replaceable, and finding a new job in Japan later in life is next to impossible. So the answer, "I'm Japanese" is suitable. Just because you find the answers tedious doesn't make them incorrect. |
That's a typical excuse given, "if I don't work those hours they'll get rid of me" and "how will I support my family?"
What you forget is, people work those insane hours because they choose to do so.
Just imagine if, like in France (and some other countries), people really became tired of working long hours, not seeing their families, and not having any social life, and decided not to go to work tomorrow.
The entire system would shut down and stop. THEN, companies would listen, and would actually allow employees to have some semblance of a normal life.
At some point, people have to take responsibility for their own lives. If you work 80 or 90 hours a work, then spend what little free time you do have with co-workers or at hostess clubs, you don't actually care about your family do you?
Working long hours and sending money home does not mean you care.
Whatever happened to the emotional needs that a family requires?
But, the good news is, more than 4 million people in Japan have decided that they are not going to put up with such rubbish and have taken matters into their own hands.
They are called FURITA !!!
And to this extent, I respect them. Let's hope many million more become furitas and stop paying taxes so the government, and companies will finally listen.
By that time however, it may be too late... |
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TiGrBaLm
Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 16
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nihonjinron deshyou? |
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moot point
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps I'm about to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but my fellow (Japanese) colleague working as a teacher with through the Tokyo Higher Board of Education informed me that he'll recieve a 700,000yen reduction in his salary for the upcoming fiscal year.
I'm taking a shot in the dark but this will probably equate to a 7-10% cut in his annual income. This will happen to every teacher in the Metro. Tokyo area from next year (and some wonder why they can't spend the time to talk about the best way to teach kids to remember to tack on the 3rd-person 's').
Anyway, I mentioned to him about the recent teachers' strike in B.C., Canada and suggested that they do the same. He claimed they didn't have the right, although he is an active member of the teachers union.
Does anyone have an answer to this?
I truly hope it isn't, "Because we're Japanese" |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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SEndrigo, I'm sure any answer I give you will be typical, but what the heck. As for the freeters - they live off mom and dad. They have no bills, and the tiny income they have is completely disposeable. It's easy to reject society when you still mooch off or it.
What makes you so sure that they want to see their families? If you put 50 Japanese men in a room and 50 Japanese women in a room and didn't call it a dating party, you find the group nearly completely separated any time you looked in. Men feel more comfortable at work than at home, and women would rather the men stay out of their honorable burden of motherhood.
In Japan fulfulling your duties is how achievement is defined. Someone who decides to shirk their duties even for justifiable reasons is seen as lazy, not just by the bosses, but by everyone he or she works with. Saying you are tired is a badge of honor here.
Moot point, I'm not certain, but I think it is illegal for public employees to go on strike in Japan. The national teachers unions are also a lot weaker than they used to be. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
| SEndrigo, I'm sure any answer I give you will be typical, but what the heck. As for the freeters - they live off mom and dad. They have no bills, and the tiny income they have is completely disposeable. It's easy to reject society when you still mooch off or it. |
Freeters are very useful to the economy because we need people to work those convenience store, supermarket, drug store, restaurant, etc. jobs. Not everyone can be a salaryman.
Many service-oriented jobs are held by part-time freeters.
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| What makes you so sure that they want to see their families? |
This is another sad truth, unfortunately! Whatever I say now, I'll probably be accused of imposing my Western mentality upon these people, but in my opinion, someone who doesn't want to see his family is subhuman !
So you marry someone and bring a child into this world, then never see your child....if that's on purpose, mannnnn, you are just evil !
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| If you put 50 Japanese men in a room and 50 Japanese women in a room and didn't call it a dating party, you find the group nearly completely separated any time you looked in. |
I wouldn't call that a dating party, I'd call that a gay/lesbian party!
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| Men feel more comfortable at work than at home, and women would rather the men stay out of their honorable burden of motherhood. |
Sadly enough, that may be true for the men, but I know for a fact that women here would gladly welcome any help around the house.
Raising kids is one of the toughest jobs in today's society, much tougher than turning up to work, shuffling papers, and sitting through countless meetings with your boss droning on about how the company can be more productive.
There's no excuse for being a deadbeat Dad, not here, not in any country.
But many are, so their families suffer, and their relationships suffer.
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| In Japan fulfulling your duties is how achievement is defined. Someone who decides to shirk their duties even for justifiable reasons is seen as lazy, not just by the bosses, but by everyone he or she works with. Saying you are tired is a badge of honor here. |
As I said, if someone wants to put work first, then they have to accept the consequences of their marriage going down the drain, and missing out on one of the greatest joys of life - seeing their kids grow up.
Life's all about priorities. According to what you're saying, many Japanese men consider work more important than family and relationships.
That's sad. Call me Westernised, or even accuse me of imposing my belief/value system upon others, I don't care. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:21 am Post subject: |
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I think that if someone spends four times their waking hours at work than at home (which is very commone here), you would start to feel like an alien in their own home. Of course, you would be more comfortable at work than at home. Your kids wouldn't know you and you would feel very estranged from your wife. Let's not forget all those men that live in one city to work anf then only come home on weekends or Sundays.
I am not saying this is right, in fact the opposite, but that is the way of life here from many families. I also know that many women dread the days their husbands are home because their routine is disrupted. This occurs after many years of the previously mentioned pattern. |
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Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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those kinds of fathers are called gokiburi.
Many women decide to get divorced around the time their husband retires or before, since before they lived separate lives. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| aclarke wrote: |
| The lifestyle of the average Japanese salaryman is not much different from most people I know back in Canada: the only real difference seems to be that at home, both husbands and wives usually work. Here it's quite often the man supporting the family (and handing over the pay packet at the end of the month to his wife. Ask around: many are ashamed to admit it, but most Japanese men recieve a monthly allowance from their wives. Because they're Japanese, I suppose.) |
On a personal note, it would be very nice if I could work until 5pm and have weekends off and spend playing with kids.
I dont know how many people on this forum have school age kids but i have two (11 and 7), wife doesnt work and to stay afloat I work three jobs, including weekends. I earn a very good salary but to a japanese wife it is never enough and what we dont spend on expenses goes on 'rainy day" money. I am always looking at redundancy becuase of work contracts every couple of years and its got very stressful as of late because of lots of competition for jobs.
We are lucky if we 'save' one million yen a year out of my earnings and the goal of most Japanese is to have six months income saved as a buffer in case of big expenses, an overseas trip etc. My wife is not happy unless we have a couple of million in the bank account.
Like a japanese salaryman i get pocketmoney never see my salary and its a frequent bone of contention with me and my wife. i guess you can always pull rank and say you would never hand over your pay check but until you actually have to its hard to say.
If i want extra beer money I will teach privates or pick up extra work but i will dip into the cookie jar from time to time. if she doesnt like it, tough. I still consider it mostly my money and Im not really happy about living on an "allowance". That said we have costs that we have to meet every month and we are short on occasion so it means cutting back on luxuries and frivolous spending.
I will also add that once a woman here has kids you can probably forget about your wife ever working full time again and some do not even work part time. it falls on the husband, foreign or Japanese to come up with the cash every month to make the budget meet and as my wife told me the other day. "You have to support the kids education until they are twenty". Pleasant thought. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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With my wife I've managed to keep our bank accounts separate, though she really objected for quite a while. We don't have kids yet. Something that has actually saved me is that I have substantial student loan debts, and my wife doesn't really want her income to go for my debts. We currently have about the same income, but that's due to change in the future.
Note to Paul, Don't kill yourself. Your wife married a foreign man knowing just that. Make room for happiness, and if the wife talks about money problems push her to assist the mutual cause. You don't do her or the kids much good if you are dead, and I'm sure you are a better father and husband when you don't feel stretched beyond your skin. If your wife insists on a Japanese monetary standard then the next time you get home from work demand the sake, the bath, the dinner and spend the next couple hours bitching. After about a week of this she might want the old Paul back and even cut you some slack. If she doesn't then enjoy the service. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| that censored word was similar to beaching. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
Note to Paul, Don't kill yourself. Your wife married a foreign man knowing just that. Make room for happiness, and if the wife talks about money problems push her to assist the mutual cause. You don't do her or the kids much good if you are dead, and I'm sure you are a better father and husband when you don't feel stretched beyond your skin. If your wife insists on a Japanese monetary standard then the next time you get home from work demand the sake, the bath, the dinner and spend the next couple hours *beep*. After about a week of this she might want the old Paul back and even cut you some slack. If she doesn't then enjoy the service. |
I agree. Mind you, easier said than done.
My wife (not Japanese btw) is the one telling me to not work so much. She said "when you're old, are you going to think you should have worked more and seen the kids grow up less?"
We are cancelling 2 private classes just so we can spend more time together. If we really need the money, we can go to the Middle East. Japan is a tough place to save. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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For the past two years I have worked in Japan and sent the bulk of my salary back to my wife and three children in the US. We are not estranged or separated or anything like that. It's just the only way things work out. Several years ago we realized that we were unwilling to submit our children to horror of Japanese high school education and an English-speaking international school in Japan just wasn't an option. Luckily that year I had a sabbatical leave so we all moved back to the US and got the kids enrolled in a good public high school (the same one I attended in fact).
At the end of the year it was time to pay the piper and I had to return to Japan. We talked about me finding a tenure-track job in the US but the more I looked into that and the more I thought about that option, it didn't really offer a solution either. Tenure-track jobs are few and far between and you've got to work your ass off to get tenure. They way things were looking I figure I'd end up in Michigan or somewhere and the rest of the family would STILL be in California and I'd be flying in to visit when I could between all the teaching and publication and other professional requirements.
At present, I teach something like 130 days a year (12 hours a week) here in Japan and earn more than $20,000 a year more than an Assistant Professor earns in the US. If I took at job in the US, my wife would HAVE to work just to make ends meet. Actually she works full-time now and thank god since it's her job that provides medical insurance. Her actual salary is a pitance but the insurance is worth its weight in gold in the insane medical world of the US. So much for "the family." As things are I'm able to fly home 3-4 times a year and spend as much as three months with the family. In between its Yahoo BB and an iSight on my Mac.
Don't be so hard on "deadbeat" dads. Besides I know business travelers in the US that spend less time with their families than I do. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Gordon, I earn and save more money in Japan than I ever did in the Middle East. The Middle East is only a "cash cow" for those bizarre expats who stash every rial or dinar into their bank account back home -- in effect selling one or more years of their lives for cash.
We had a good time in the Middle East, stayed there for 12 years. Lived our lives there. Raised our children there. Grew as people. But we did not save one of those mythical bundles of money. I'd love to go back. But the truth is that for all but the smallest handful of jobs I'd have to take a significant pay cut to go back to the Gulf. And be giving up a tenured position for an uncertain life of 1 and 2 year contracts.
The fact is, my current job is probably the best job I'll every have. And sometimes that's hard to live with. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| abufletcher wrote: |
Gordon, I earn and save more money in Japan than I ever did in the Middle East. The Middle East is only a "cash cow" for those bizarre expats who stash every rial or dinar into their bank account back home -- in effect selling one or more years of their lives for cash.
We had a good time in the Middle East, stayed there for 12 years. Lived our lives there. Raised our children there. Grew as people. But we did not save one of those mythical bundles of money. I'd love to go back. But the truth is that for all but the smallest handful of jobs I'd have to take a significant pay cut to go back to the Gulf. And be giving up a tenured position for an uncertain life of 1 and 2 year contracts.
The fact is, my current job is probably the best job I'll every have. And sometimes that's hard to live with. |
I agree that this is the perhaps least strenuous job I'll ever have, but I hope to God not the best. But then we are at different schools. It might be the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but you won't know before you try. Still... it is hard to leave a good thing. |
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