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Bryanpass
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Kaohsiung
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 Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| teacha wrote: |
| QUIT THE JOB GET FINED, GET FIRED, GET FINED......Quit with notice, go via the labor dept and blame the scool's breaking the contact. This covers you for when they get vindictive and try to get you blacklisted (denying u gave notice regardless ) for embarassing them to the parents and making them hustle to fill your spot notice or not. You cover yourself, people can't be trusted in Taiwan to be reasonable nor honest. Business and lies are one.....But that's why you are moving on to the next bad job right? See. |
Hi there - my name is Teacha and I bring absolutley nothing to the table. |
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Big Chris
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Parts Unknown
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| teacha wrote: |
| QUIT THE JOB GET FINED, GET FIRED, GET FINED......Quit with notice, go via the labor dept and blame the scool's breaking the contact. This covers you for when they get vindictive and try to get you blacklisted (denying u gave notice regardless ) for embarassing them to the parents and making them hustle to fill your spot notice or not. You cover yourself, people can't be trusted in Taiwan to be reasonable nor honest. Business and lies are one.....But that's why you are moving on to the next bad job right? See. |
I taught in Taiwan for about 4 months at a school who burned me HARD. I learned the hard way that workers have no rights in Taiwan.
At the first instance of the school being dishonorable and breaking your contract in any way, shape or form, just walk. School owners out there tend to sign you to a contract, force you on a 3 month probationary period and the second that is over, push you into quitting. All the sudden the longer term teachers start going on vacations that are on strange times of year, (not during any holidays in particular and for any particular reason,) then you get a ton of classes lumped onto your current schedule, many times overlapping and it will be all your fault the second you can't juggle it anymore.
I would love to learn about any precident where a teacher won a battle with a school over their pay, contract or what not and actually A. won and B. got their money. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Chris wrote: |
| I taught in Taiwan for about 4 months at a school who burned me HARD. I learned the hard way that workers have no rights in Taiwan. |
I am not trying to be judgemental but those are pretty harsh words. As I have mentioned on this forum many times before I believe that we do have rights here in Taiwan and I have outlined these as I see them on a sticky in this forum. The main difference between Taiwan and back home is that we foeigners (as well as locals) generally need to actively pursue our rights here.
May I ask what the circumstances were in your case where you were treated badly? And also what action did you take to enforce your rights?
| Big Chris wrote: |
| School owners out there tend to sign you to a contract, force you on a 3 month probationary period and the second that is over, push you into quitting. |
I am unclear as to why you feel schools may do this. What would be the benefit to them? I could understand concerns with schools pushing you out in the eleventh month of a twelve month contract in an effort to avoid paying you bonuses due at the end of the contract, but surely any teacher who gets pushed out after just three months must not be a very valuable teacher to the school.
Could you elaborate a bit on why you feel that you were pushed out so soon?
| Big Chris wrote: |
| I would love to learn about any precident where a teacher won a battle with a school over their pay, contract or what not and actually A. won and B. got their money. |
There are a number of examples where teachers have actively pursued their rights here and won.
The most notable of these was the teacher years ago who took one of the big chains to arbitration over a deposit they had charged her but refused to return. She won the case on the grounds that the taking of deposits was illegal.
I have personally had a win against a school who deducted taxes from my wage religiously but failed to pay these monies to the tax office. At the end of the year they refused to provide me with a tax withholding statement and therefore I involved the tax office. In that case the counter staff kept sending me back to the school for this documentation. I eventually tired of the back and forth and went over their heads by calling upon their supervisor. She was a tough woman and fought my case for me. In the end the school had to pay my overdue taxes to the tax office so that I could file my taxes, and it is my understanding that they got a fine three or five times the outstanding taxes. I am not positive that they ever paid that fine but I do know that were pretty damn pissed.
These are just a couple of cases of foreign teachers pursuing their rights. There are plenty more. |
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Big Chris
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Parts Unknown
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Actually you are being extremely judgemental and curt with me here.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| Big Chris wrote: |
| I taught in Taiwan for about 4 months at a school who burned me HARD. I learned the hard way that workers have no rights in Taiwan. |
I am not trying to be judgemental but those are pretty harsh words. As I have mentioned on this forum many times before I believe that we do have rights here in Taiwan and I have outlined these as I see them on a sticky in this forum. The main difference between Taiwan and back home is that we foeigners (as well as locals) generally need to actively pursue our rights here.
May I ask what the circumstances were in your case where you were treated badly? And also what action did you take to enforce your rights? |
I signed a contract to earn 50,000nt per month and never at any time did I ever make more than 8000nt on payday. My school owner would state 2 things, A. I didn't work enough hours to justify my salary, (this dispite my working every single class assigned and extra work here and there. Also, there was no clause in my contract cutting my pay AT ALL because of lack of hours worked,) and B. I quote, "your contract is stupid."
The next incident, (one that was a month long ordeal all it's own,) was the school stealing my passport. They claimed they needed it to photocopy for their records and I didn't see it again for over a month and at that point, I refused to teach until it was returned. Then my agent was called in, (whom accomplished nothing and would cower stating "this woman is crazy, I cannot deal with her",) and that did nothing. It took a near wildcat strike on the part of the other teachers before she was finally willing to "discuss" giving me a photocopy of my passport. She made all sorts of idle threats to me because I would not work until my passport was returned including having me arrested, (she even tried breaking a vase accusing me of doing it but she did it in front of all of the teachers who en masse refused to back her up.) Only when the night ended and we refused to leave the school did she finally agree to give it back.
As for what action I took, I went to the Canadian Consulate and he gave me a longwinded, (extended phone call I had to pay for btw,) speach about how we are guests here and should not be rocking any boats. At that point, even with an agent, (who was afraid of this woman and talks always broke off because he didn't have the stomach to get tough with her,) I was completely on my own.
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| Big Chris wrote: |
| School owners out there tend to sign you to a contract, force you on a 3 month probationary period and the second that is over, push you into quitting. |
I am unclear as to why you feel schools may do this. What would be the benefit to them? I could understand concerns with schools pushing you out in the eleventh month of a twelve month contract in an effort to avoid paying you bonuses due at the end of the contract, but surely any teacher who gets pushed out after just three months must not be a very valuable teacher to the school.
Could you elaborate a bit on why you feel that you were pushed out so soon?
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Now that was a nice piece of smack on your part. Highly uncalled for. Also extremely judgemental. You would be better served to ask the question before running smack like that.
However, since you go after people hard for not giving full disclosure:
Probation allowed the school owner to pay us a redused rate and this school fired every Canadian/American teacher we had when their 3 month "probationary period" was over to save money. (So she would never have to pay full salaries.) The South African teachers were making 30,000nt a month as it was and were unaware of us making as much as we were but the way she handled the probationary periods with the Canadian teachers, we never got anywhere near this.
By the 3rd month she would, like clockwork, (I saw this happen twice before it was my turn but I was tough enough to survive an extra month before she got me,) start bullying teachers into submission, double booking us with our classes and blame us afterward. (It took 10 consecutive days, including Sunday classes of "remember that I OWN YOU" and storming into my classroom and screaming "you are so STUPID" in front of my students before she finally pushed me out.)
| Quote: |
| Big Chris wrote: |
| I would love to learn about any precident where a teacher won a battle with a school over their pay, contract or what not and actually A. won and B. got their money. |
There are a number of examples where teachers have actively pursued their rights here and won.
The most notable of these was the teacher years ago who took one of the big chains to arbitration over a deposit they had charged her but refused to return. She won the case on the grounds that the taking of deposits was illegal. |
Wanna name some names there? How do we know that ever happened?
| Quote: |
I have personally had a win against a school who deducted taxes from my wage religiously but failed to pay these monies to the tax office. At the end of the year they refused to provide me with a tax withholding statement and therefore I involved the tax office. In that case the counter staff kept sending me back to the school for this documentation. I eventually tired of the back and forth and went over their heads by calling upon their supervisor. She was a tough woman and fought my case for me. In the end the school had to pay my overdue taxes to the tax office so that I could file my taxes, and it is my understanding that they got a fine three or five times the outstanding taxes. I am not positive that they ever paid that fine but I do know that were pretty damn pissed.
These are just a couple of cases of foreign teachers pursuing their rights. There are plenty more. |
Sounds like luck of the draw because everyone at my school who wasn't South African got burned. Worse yet, our own embassy would do nothing for us and our agent was way too weakneed to do a damn thing about it. (His name was Ricky but I don't remember his last name.) |
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Bryanpass
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Kaohsiung
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Chris wrote: |
| Actually you are being extremely judgemental and curt with me here. |
Actually he was being very helpful and questioning your situation so that he could provide information. I think you need to tone down the sensitivity here and understand when people are trying to help you.
I'm beginning to see why you are having issues, though.. and it looks like the school had little to do with your problems....... |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Dear Newbies,
The stuff posted by Big Chris, while possibly true, is very unusual.
He ended up at the wrong school. The lady boss sounds like a nut. Better luck next time.
I've been here 8+ years, and this is the most bizarre story I've heard.
Big Chris, could you go ahead and post the name and location of the school?.....and the nutty lady's name....and the agent's name.....and the dates involved?
Best wishes to all,
Taylor
Kaohsiung |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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I gotta agree. It sounds like BC has issues. And they go way beyond a nutter boss.
Big Chris...how many actual hours did you work to get the 8000NT paycheck? I am guessing you worked about 16? 4 hours a week right? And for this you expect a school to pay you 50,000NT? Are you from another planet? I want a passport from your planet, cuz surely you must be a rocket scientist of an English teacher to command 3,125 NT/hr.
But hey, we'll give you the benefit of some doubt here. PLease elaborate on your mistreatment...... 
Pop Corn popping..... |
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Bryanpass
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Kaohsiung
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Pop Fly wrote: |
| But hey, we'll give you the benefit of some doubt here. PLease elaborate on your mistreatment...... |
Oh, come on now.. Don't set the guy off by being so insulting as to request that he elaborate on his point. That's just damned uncalled for.
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Xenophobe
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Taylor wrote: |
Dear Newbies,
The stuff posted by Big Chris, while possibly true, is very unusual.
He ended up at the wrong school. The lady boss sounds like a nut. Better luck next time.
I've been here 8+ years, and this is the most bizarre story I've heard.
Big Chris, could you go ahead and post the name and location of the school?.....and the nutty lady's name....and the agent's name.....and the dates involved?
Best wishes to all,
Taylor
Kaohsiung |
Being in kaohsiung for 8 years I'm shocked that you never heard about the fun that went on between the former owners of Line Up, the nutter that owned Blue World (a former manager of theirs) and other people he tried screwing over. Now there was something straight out of The Twilight Zone meets As the stomache turns. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Chris your reply is pretty much as I expected. There is nothing within your reply as far as I can see that supports your statement that foreigners have no rights in Taiwan. We do have rights and we need to pursue these rights when we have been wronged. The appropriate agency to approach in regards to matters such as the ones you have raised is the Council of Labor Affairs (CLA) which is part of the Taiwan government. I can't see anywhere in your post where you actually approached any Taiwan government agency so I am unsure as to why you feel so sure that we have no rights in this country. Afterall the government here never even knew that you had a problem if you didn't tell them, so how is it fair to complain about them not helping you?
I am certainly not saying that you did not find yourself in a bad situation, but your example is far from supportive of your claim that we have no rights here.
| Big Chris wrote: |
| I signed a contract to earn 50,000nt per month and never at any time did I ever make more than 8000nt on payday. |
Had you pursued your rights through arbitration with the CLA you would have discovered that you had the legal right to be released from your contract if indeed this was your situation. This is the first of many of your rights that you obviously were not aware of, but just because you weren't aware of them does not mean that these rights do not exist.
If I were you I would have presented Article 14 of the Labor Standards Law in support of your request to be released from your contract as your employer was clearly in breach of that Article if they misrepresented the number of hours that you would be given. That article clearly states that this is just cause for an employee to request release from a contract. Now it is not up to you or I to decide that we can release ourselves from contracts, but the CLA would almost certainly have agreed had you made them aware of your case.
That is an example of a right that you had but did not exercise.
| Big Chris wrote: |
| My school owner would state 2 things, A. I didn't work enough hours to justify my salary, (this dispite my working every single class assigned and extra work here and there. Also, there was no clause in my contract cutting my pay AT ALL because of lack of hours worked,) and B. I quote, "your contract is stupid." |
You have not indicated clearly what your contract stipulated in this regard.
If you were working on an hourly rate under a contract that offered up to NTD50,000 per month then it seems clear that if you didn't work these hours then you weren't entitled to the pay.
If however your contract was a fixed salary contract and you fulfilled the hour requirements but weren't paid then you should have taken this up with the CLA.
Maybe you could be a bit more clear about this. What did your contract say about how many hours you had to work each month to earn the NTD50,000? How many hours did you spend at work each month?
| Big Chris wrote: |
| The next incident, (one that was a month long ordeal all it's own,) was the school stealing my passport. They claimed they needed it to photocopy for their records and I didn't see it again for over a month and at that point, I refused to teach until it was returned. |
Once again this is a problem, but it is in no way indicative of a lack of rights for foreigners in Taiwan and as such does not support your earlier statement.
As many of us are aware, our passports are owned by our home countries and as such no one can withhold your passport from you (with the exception perhaps of a government authority in cases of deportation). What is clear is that private companies and people cannot withhold a passport.
This is also clearly stated as your right here in Taiwan according to Article 57 of the Employment Services Act. So once again you had the right to seek assistance from the government here in Taiwan in resolving this problem but you were either unaware of this right or chose not to exercise this right. It certainly does not mean that these rights do not exist.
| Big Chris wrote: |
| ...She made all sorts of idle threats to me because I would not work until my passport was returned including having me arrested... |
Now, by refusing to teach at any stage during your contract you were in fact in breach of your contract and could have been fired legitimately by the employer without notice. Possibly this is the reason that you were let go.
| Big Chris wrote: |
| As for what action I took, I went to the Canadian Consulate and he gave me a longwinded, (extended phone call I had to pay for btw,) speach about how we are guests here and should not be rocking any boats. At that point, even with an agent, (who was afraid of this woman and talks always broke off because he didn't have the stomach to get tough with her,) I was completely on my own. |
In my opinion going to your consulate or consulate representative office is not the best way of achieving results here in Taiwan and as such I never recommend it. If you have a look at your consulates website you will see that consulate staff are not permitted to become involved with civil issues in this country. Much of what you complained about to this person involves civil matters (your employment and employment contract) and as such there is nothing that they can nor want to do to assist you.
The matter of withholding a passport is something however that your consulate will take seriously and will assist you with. And do you know how they achieve the return of your passport? They contact the relevant local authorities and ask them to do it as the consular staff of foreign countries have no right to march into your school demanding your passport back. So why you wasted money contacting your consulate is beyond me when you could have approached the local authorities with your concerns and achieved the same results free of charge.
Once again, these are the rights of foreigners that you did not seem to know existed, but that does not mean that they don't exist.
| Big Chris wrote: |
| Probation allowed the school owner to pay us a redused rate and this school fired every Canadian/American teacher we had when their 3 month "probationary period" was over to save money. (So she would never have to pay full salaries.) The South African teachers were making 30,000nt a month as it was and were unaware of us making as much as we were but the way she handled the probationary periods with the Canadian teachers, we never got anywhere near this. |
I assume that all of this was outlined in your contract of employment as you don't suggest that it wasn't.
If it wasn't then you had the right to approach the CLA to request a release from your contract as per Article 14 above.
If this was however all stated in your contract then what are you complaining about. You all agreed to it. If you think that the probationary period was unfair or that the pay was too low then why did you sign up for the job? This has nothing to do with rights or lack of rights but lack of sense!
| Big Chris wrote: |
| Wanna name some names there? How do we know that ever happened? |
It's questions like this that just show your ignorance. Do a search and don't so lazy! This was a well known case that happened probably eight years ago now against Kojen (ELSI at the time).
How come you are so sure that foreigners don't have rights in Taiwan when you are not even aware of such matters as this case?
| Big Chris wrote: |
| Sounds like luck of the draw because everyone at my school who wasn't South African got burned. |
Quite clearly my case wasn't luck of the draw. My case was based upon enforcement of my rights in Taiwan. I investigated what rights I had and I pursued these and I got them enforced. You on the other hand failed to research what rights you had and subsequently failed to pursue rights that you didn't even know existed and therefore no one could help you as they didn't know that you had a problem.
| Big Chris wrote: |
| Worse yet, our own embassy would do nothing for us |
So that has nothing to do with your rights or lack of in Taiwan.
Quite clearly I was right to question the motives behind your statement that we have no rights in Taiwan as your statement was flawed. |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Xenophobe,
You seem to be talking about a Westerner screwing over other "foreigners."
It seems I met the former owner of Blue World one day at a convenience store years ago, but I don't know anything beyond that. The name Andy comes to mind. What year are you talking about, by the way?
I have heard of one screwy couple named Jack & Sarah (both Taiwanese). It was just over 5 years ago that I got a negative, first-hand report about them.
We just need to keep using this forum to spread the word. With the Internet and e-mail, I imagine we can do a lot to avoid these screwed-up deals before they ever happen.
Best wishes to all!
Taylor |
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Xenophobe
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| I think it all started in '96 but didn't finish up until '99 or 2000, when Blue World closed up shop for good. Man, some of things that went on were nasty. Andy and his Taiwanese girlfriend(or wife??) were the losers in the end, as far as I know, seeing no one wanted to work for him anymore and no one would hire him as a teacher because everyone got word about him and his 'wife'. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Cark, I'm sure you are on the mark but I also think that you expect too much knowledge and intuition from the average expat.
If my employer with-held my passport or degree then I would have pretty much followed the same course of action, contacting my consulate and going on strike until it was returned. After being here for a couple of years and reading up on my options I may decide on a more appropriate course of action though, like contacting the CLA. Still, thanks for puting us on the right course. You do take a lot of time to respond.
I think that the downfall with every agent/recruiter is that after you sign your contract then they will always back the school over you. It is with the school that they get their repeat business. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: |
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The best way to get out of a contract is not to sign one in the first place. Once you sign a contract you have in the eyes of the CLA waived your rights. If the employer can not legally employ you do not allow them to enslave you.
Send a letter to your employer stating that you are quitting with the specified time stipulated by Taiwan's labor suppression laws.
If the CLA black list you for breaking your contract you can sue the CLA for enforcing an illegal contract and violating the few rights you have under Taiwan's labor suppression laws.
Good luck and if you need any help please contact,
[email protected]
Good luck!
A. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
The best way to get out of a contract is not to sign one in the first place. Once you sign a contract you have in the eyes of the CLA waived your rights. If the employer can not legally employ you do not allow them to enslave you.
Send a letter to your employer stating that you are quitting with the specified time stipulated by Taiwan's labor suppression laws.
If the CLA black list you for breaking your contract you can sue the CLA for enforcing an illegal contract and violating the few rights you have under Taiwan's labor suppression laws.
Good luck and if you need any help please contact,
[email protected]
Good luck!
A. |
What kind of smack are you talking about here? It is impossible to get a work permit without an agreement signed between an employee and an employer. In other words, a contract.
Aristotle, you once again prove that you don't have an inkling of what's going on here in Taiwan. I am only thankful that you've decided to only come around with your tripe every couple of weeks instead of days. It's easier for us to keep track of you and therefore less work for us to do having to continually discount your misinformation.
Now, please, your rock is calling, get a'crawling.... |
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