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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, that's good for today's class. What are you going to do tomorrow? And the day after that? |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Great ideas Decon and something we try to do here. I'll point out however, that it is infinitely easier to do in ESL where you than in EFL in some places in the world. Constant exposure to English must be a great help for your students, but here in Mexico it takes longer on a mere few hours a week.
Students need ACCESS to materials...to tv, radio, articles. Fortunately, the net brings a lot of it closer.
Teachers need to be paid more for the prep time in working on such materials. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ls650 wrote: |
| Well, that's good for today's class. What are you going to do tomorrow? And the day after that? |
If you're referring to my post, that's all they do every day for my conversation class. What better way to generate discussion?!
All my regular "grammar" classes consist of retelling stories, listening to cool tapes and watching interesting programs. Students use all these resources to work their way through language as naturally as possible. Vocab is learned by using new words not memorizing them while grammar is learned implicitly.
THERE ARE NO TEXTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I teach strategies for learning so that they can become their own teachers. I refuse to chew the food and spit it into their mouths.
Anyone who�s interested in some cool learning strategies, pm me and I�ll be more than happy TO share them with you. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I refuse to chew the food and spit it into their mouths.
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Well, that's a relief. And seriously, Decon, you make some good points. And your conversation class sounds like a lot of fun.
I explained in some detail earlier that I still wouldn't be textless. I understand your view- but out here, teachers are paid for the number of classes they teach. If they had to design all their own materials, they'd have to be paid twice as much per class. So unless I think the market will take a 100% price increase, which I don't, textbooks become a necessar resource.
And honestly, while no textbook is perfect, and many, perhaps most, genuinely suck out loud, do you seriously mean that you take NO material from textbooks? Our library contains some thousands of the buggers, and while there is NONE that stands alone and needs no supplementing, I haven't found too many that have NOTHING useful in them.
Just my two cents worth.
Justin |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
| Quote: |
I refuse to chew the food and spit it into their mouths.
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And honestly, while no textbook is perfect, and many, perhaps most, genuinely suck out loud, do you seriously mean that you take NO material from textbooks? Our library contains some thousands of the buggers, and while there is NONE that stands alone and needs no supplementing, I haven't found too many that have NOTHING useful in them.
Just my two cents worth.
Justin |
I am sure you can find something useful in some of the texts, but that's like saying there is something nutritious in the unhealthiest of foods, a Big Mac, for example. It is true that there is, but this doesn't mean that the book should be used just as it doesn�t mean that the big Mac should be consumed. The damage greatly outweighs the benefit.
You're right; it doesn't make sense to ask the teachers to put together material since they are not getting paid for the work. There are, however, places that do pay teachers, like at one of the universities where I work here in Montreal. All the material is put together by us teachers and everything is taken from TV/radio/video/magazines/newspapers/classic texts. It is without doubt the greatest program I have ever encountered.
Finding good material is not hard anywhere in the world of the Internet and satellite TV. I lived in Brazil for a while and even there I had CNN. It is possible to compile material without spending too much time. Whether it is worth doing so where one works and the amount of money one makes, is a different question, not to mention that most organizations have their own way of doing things and frown upon any new idea that may be presented.
Finally, the materials that are being published today need not be as worthless and incompetent as they are. All the writers have to do is put a bit of thought into their work instead of letting all their thoughts be dominated by the money that comes their way. I mean it takes talent to produce the garbage that is out there. You couldn�t produce that stuff accidentally.
The entire ESL/EFL publishing industry is based on the assumption that we need some kind of a book as we walk into the classroom. It is this bunk that must be debunked. Real English is found in real texts. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Deke, no doubt that the Moonraven would agree with you.
I bring up the idea of learning through experience, oft called the communicative method when teaching abroad. How do you involve your students there in Montreal in communication? It can't all be text, video, and tv can it? Do you do any outside-the-classroom work? |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
Deke, no doubt that the Moonraven would agree with you.
I bring up the idea of learning through experience, oft called the communicative method when teaching abroad. How do you involve your students there in Montreal in communication? It can't all be text, video, and tv can it? Do you do any outside-the-classroom work? |
I take them out as much as possible, a place where they have to engage the real world in a meaningful fashion. It could be as simple as going to a museum, but each student has a task to accomplish. For beginners it could be buying the tickets and finding schedules while for more advanced levels it could be finding out in detail what the exhibition is all about. The bottom line is that the experience must be meaningful and must make the student feel more comfortable with the English language. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: |
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See, I would love to do that kind of stuff here. I agree that such interaction is the best thing you can do in a class. But, in a country where little English is spoken outside of 'you wanna table dance' or 'come my friend, is very cheap', it's not easy.
For that, we have to rely on what's available in the classroom, and on what student see as a method and a structure...often a textbook. I never ever rely on just the text though. I stray as much as possible, particularly from the canned audio clips of Jack and Jill's amazing adventures in the RESTAURANT. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
See, I would love to do that kind of stuff here. I agree that such interaction is the best thing you can do in a class. But, in a country where little English is spoken outside of 'you wanna table dance' or 'come my friend, is very cheap', it's not easy.
For that, we have to rely on what's available in the classroom, and on what student see as a method and a structure...often a textbook. I never ever rely on just the text though. I stray as much as possible, particularly from the canned audio clips of Jack and Jill's amazing adventures in the RESTAURANT. |
Your points are well taken, Guy; I just don't want to use my students to make bunch of idiot, mendacious authors rich. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| On that I can agree, though you may change your tune when comes the time you start writing material... |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| On that I can agree, though you may change your tune when comes the time you start writing material... |
If I wrote an ESL book it would be against everything I have ever believed about teaching English. There is nothing I could put in that book except the strategies to use certain material, for example, how to deal with new vocab without using one's $500 electronic dic. Everything else any teacher could find anywhere in the world. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| On that I can agree, though you may change your tune when comes the time you start writing material... |
If I wrote an ESL book it would be against everything I have ever believed about teaching English. There is nothing I could put in that book except the strategies to use certain material, for example, how to deal with new vocab without using one's $500 electronic dic. Everything else any teacher could find anywhere in the world. |
Announcing the soon-to-be-released EFL series "Go to Hell' by Deconstructor. I'll buy it, even if it is only 297 pages of 'use something else'.  |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
| that's all they do every day for my conversation class. What better way to generate discussion?! |
It sounds fine for a class or two, but then what? |
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Kent F. Kruhoeffer
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2129
Location: 中国
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ls650 wrote: |
| It sounds fine for a class or two, but then what? |
This can be done perpetually. After all, what more do you want them to do in a conversation class?! Every day they come and converse about a different topic some of which generate more subsequent dialogue and some don't.
Besides, what is the alternative? The teacher comes to class and introduces a topic which is almost always received enthusiastically by some and jeered by others. Let them choose their own.
Last edited by Deconstructor on Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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