Job Discussion Forums

[libertarian lou]

Compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, i.e. capital cities or secondary cities. The immediate comparisons that come to mind are the following...

After sharing my list I will add my personal comments.

1) How easy is it to stay there for half a year?

2) What does it cost to live?

3) How much will I get paid?

4) Comparing the two how much can I save?

5) How soon can I begin doing so?

6) How easy and quick is it to get a job?

7) Does one have to sign a contract and what if one breaks it?

Does one have to pay income taxes and how high are they?

9) How enjoyable will the job be?

10) How enjoyable will my life off work be?

Assuming one is a native speaker, without a degree, with teaching experience, a good teacher and is willing to teach 30 hours a week. And I see things from the perspective of a bachelor-wanderer with no emotional ties to the country. This posting is addressed to fellow libertine males. If you easily offended don't read on.

1) How easy is it to stay there for half a year?

Thailand: For citizens of Canada and many other western first world countries one can apply and easily get within three days a two month tourist visa. There are no weird questions at Immigration. It is silent and fast. Customs is virtually non-existent. The tourist visa can be extended for a small fee for another month, then another month (actually two weeks times two, so it requires two trips to Immigration). Again, at all these steps it is simply a matter of showing up politely dressed, submitting one's application forms, and paying a small fee. They really don't care why you want to stay on.

Then after four months you're out of time. Big deal - you go for a train trip to Mae Sai at the border with Burma and go see Tachilek for an hour or overnight. Walk back and you have another four months. The Burmese will charge you $5 for the right to turn around. Or you could go to Cambodia, about $200 by air or if you like long bus trips you could go overland via Aranya Prathet in the N.E. Or Trat in the S.E. if you teach in the south you go to Malaysia and enjoy some Indian food and stout in Georgetown. Or North by air or overland/ferry to Laos.

Taiwan: In contrast Taiwan is an island that as far as I can tell doesn't even want tourists unless they are ethnic Chinese. A landing permit is two weeks compared to the Thai one month (that is if you show up without a tourist visa). Unless you get a taxed job or sign up for Chinese language lessons (real or phoney) or jump through some hoops you have to leave after whatever your visa allowed. I don't know if Vietnam's office of five years ago is representative but I found the officer there down right hostile.
[update: I was required to submit a bank statement in order to visit so I flat cancelled my trip. I don't share banking information with any government.]

I know people who have lived in Thailand technically illegally for decades. Their passport is proof that they are permanent tourists there, but do they get hassled for it? No. Welcome to Thailand. I have read so many horrible stories from Taiwan on this and other forums.

2) What does it cost to live?

Accommodation: I have lived off and on in Thailand as a self-employed professional and as a tourist for what must cumulatively be three years at least. Here is my take on Thailand. In general it is better value to live as a traveller than setting up a real home. I have done both. I have rented adequete clean, quiet, guesthouse rooms (shared bath) for under $5. The advantage of this is that if one's job location changes, big deal - you move.

I rented a simple apartment (in Chiang Mai actually, in Bangkok rents are higher but not outrageously so) for B2500 a month including fridge. Electricity added another B800-1000 a month. Last time I checked the baht was 43 to the dollar that means my monthly rent was $82. But there was no kitchen or living room. It was one big room with an attached toilet/shower room and small patio

You can get fully furnished apartment-hotels but they cost four times the price.

Short term accommodation in Taiwan by comparison sounds outrageously expensive. Unless one arranges a homestay, lives in Buddhist temple (presumably one must be a member of this religion) that means setting up an apartment. I know what that involves - furniture, all those little rennovations to make it liveable, decorations, etc. It's a full time job!

A night in a moderate hotel with aircon, pool, security etc. In BKK B600-B1000 ($14 - $23). TPE looks like about NTD 1500 - 4000 ($47 - $125). So even if I am making only B300 and hour I can pay for a night in one of these comfortable hotels after two to under four hours work. TPE comparison please?

Food: This is where the real bargain comes in. Sure TPE has street food, as does Thailand. Care to guess which country's cuisine rates as world class? I can eat in BKK, if I cared for Thai food, which I don't, for about a dollar. Taiwan doesn't sound bad either. Vegetarians will have a better time of it in Taiwan with its Buddhist and Taoist restaurants though since there is almost always some meat or fish (if even in sauce) in all Thai food. God forbid all that MSG (Thais use it liberally too) But for buffets, hmm, BKK rules. You can get a five star hotel's lunch buffet for B400 after all taxes. That's $8. I'm talking oysters and lamb from New Zealand, European cheese, pasta, Chinese and Thai food - the whole nine yards. For B200 you can find cheaper places. TPE?

Shopping: BKK has the same problems as TPE. Clothes don't fit our big frames (western women will have an especially hard time finding bras large enough - couldn't resist that comment!). Thai aesthetic sense rarely matches ours. Difficult to find anything without a prominent designer label. Taiwan and Thailand sound similar. Shoes except imported ones, are poor quality.

Pirated software, songs (CDs and MPGs) are very cheap in BKK - B100 ($2). So a teacher in BKK has to work 15 minutes to pay for one. TPE?

Recreational drugs: Note - I don't use drugs except coffee, tea and chocolate because I get paranoid and I think I'm going to die. So I don't smoke cannabis. But there are those of us who love those cigarettes that make you laugh so who am I to tell other people what to do with their bodies? Weed in BKK is available as I presume it is in TPE. I don't have any idea of the price or legal restrictions but you can bet it's worse in TPE. Last trip I hung out on the roof of the guesthouse in BKK with a German and a Canadian who smoked grass every night. It wasn't a big deal. I have known several heroin addicts in BKK over the years and in BKK they seemed to be able to supply their habit without going broke.

Air trips: BKK is an international airfares centre - the hub of S.E. Asia and even Asia. Taiwan is not close to anything except the Philippines (does PI Air even fly there?) and Hong Kong. Am I wrong?

3) How much will I get paid?

B300-400 ($7-$9 an hour) sounds about right now for BKK. Anyone teaching there now care to disagree? You see, I have never taught in BKK, I had another project going. But my friend who is there now tells me that he is making B350 or so, and since he doesn't get paid for travel time he makes even less (but maybe they don't pay for travel in Taipei either). NTD is stronger than the Thai baht, what is it now 32? If 600 is an average Taipei wage that means almost $16 an hour.

So even if my math is anything close to accurate Taiwan wins hands down.

4) Comparing the two how much can I save?

I count US dollars not NTD or baht because regardless of one's local earning potential what counts (in my view) is spending the money *out* of the country.

Taiwan would appear to also win hands down. Regardless of how good value Thailand is it still doesn't magically create dollars to bank.

5) How soon can one begin doing so?

I hear that in TPE it takes 3-6 months to really get rolling. I don't care if I could earn $2000 a month after six months. In half a year I might be bored and want to move onto Indonesia or wherever. BKK? Ask somebody who has taught there! Perhaps a key question is...

6) How easy and quick is it to get a job?

Another important point. Living for several months to get a decent job chews up cash.

7) Does one have to sign a contract and what if one breaks it?

BKK - No (again, this is only what I hear from my friends who have or are teaching there several of them legally)

TPE - Yes (common practice, yes?) Unnecessary for grey market jobs.

Does one have to pay income taxes and how high are they?

BKK - No

TPE - Not if one is teaching illegally

9) How enjoyable will the job be?

Artist in a Rudolph Steiner school or a robot in a diploma mill? Obviously there are a myriad of individual choices, but I mean the typical job. If Thai students are anything like Cambodian ones they are polite, respectful although rather shy.

10) How enjoyable will one's life off work be?


I have not seen Taiwnese women. In my critical observation in several provinces in PRC Chinese women tend to be less attractive than Thai ones. A matter of taste for sure.

Making friends: While I do have friends Hindu and Muslim friends in India and Malaysia I have never made a male friend in Thailand (presumably he would be Theravada Buddhist although ethnic Chinese could be Christian). Taiwan sounds more promising since you can actually visit their homes right? Thailand - no way. Family life in the home is closely guarded. If Taiwanese are anything like the Cantonese in my home town they won't be so distant socially. Don't think that Thais aren't racist, they certainly are. But they have the good manners to not show it. They speak softly and their body language is polite. If Chinese I observed in Hong Kong are any basis to go by Chinese in general are extremely rude. Thais are graceful. They don't scream or push. Geez, I've seen Chinese couples having fistfights in public in Yunnan! Or compare the dancing. Chinese kids doing Chinese dance, well it looks crude compared to elegant sinuous Thai dancing. Han Chinese could not be accused of being a sensual culture!

And the one I add now that really makes me pause...

11) On my death bed will I look back and say 'that time I spent out of my precious short time on earth was it worth it?'

Thus the *only* reason I might go teach in Taiwan is MONEY. For someone who has no interest, let alone fascination for, Chinese culture, Chinese women it sounds marginally appealing. I don't know if the distaste I will probably have for the place having travelled in 16 countries, mostly in SE Asia, would be compensated for by cash.

In Thailand you can change your mind and just hang out very economically. That is not possible in Taiwan. It's 'going to the office'.

Vietnam and Indonesia sounds a lot more appealing, but again same bottom line. All the appealing places pay poorly. The golden days of Cambodia are over. You can no longer make $16 an hour, live cheap and high on the hog and go to bed listening to AK-47's of rival police groups fighting. Ah, war! It keeps the tourists and 20 year old travellers away.

[Aristotle]

The reason pay is so high for anyone working in Taiwan is because their are some very real risks and inconveniences.
Living in Taiwan is not easy by any means. That is why I and I suspect so many others do it. It is a daily challenge. Just getting to work in the morning can be life threatening.
You can't really compare Thailand to Taiwan. Thailand sells it's beauty and culture. Taiwan has little beauty or culture to sell. It has even fewer people willing to buy it. Taiwan sells industry and corruption. If you want to buy industrial machines or find some legalized slave labor. Taiwan is the place. When you hear the term foreign tourism used in conjunction with Taiwan it means foreign businesses and the associated people.
On of my associates once gave me a bit of advice I found very useful,
" Business people are given a walk through at any Taiwan visa office, teachers are rejected outright in many of these same places.". There are not many real tourist that come to Taiwan and for good reason.
Pollution, corruption, traffic, child abuse, racism, organized crime and epidemic dishonesty are just some of the obstacles anyone will have to overcome to be a successful teacher in Taiwan.
You also need to be of above average intelligence to overcome the visa problem and make some money.
As far as Mary Jo, I wouldn't recommend it. Another associate of mine takes food to the foreigners in prison here every Christmas. There are quite a few white and black faces in prison here. The vast majority of the long term prisoners are there on drug charges. Dealers and traffickers.
A friend of mine coming to Taipei a few years ago from college was found with a pipe in his bag. It had resin in it and he was given a seven years sentence. He was 18 years old. It took a lot of money and assistance to get his sentence suspended after a few years.
If you want to make a reasonable sum of money in a short time, work for the summer. As many hours as you can find, seven days a week. After 2 or 3 months you should have more than enough to survive in Thailand for the rest of the year. Don't come to Taiwan to have fun because you will spend all your money and be disappointed.
A.

[WorkingVaca]

Have either of you lived on an ESL teacher's salary in Thailand?

[Aristotle]

I used to spend the winters there as my old bones don't do so well in the cold damp winters of the temperate regions.
You can live quite well on a Taiwan Teacher's, ESL salary, in Thailand. I have never really tried teaching in Thailand, I always thought it would spoil it for me.
A.

[Sunpower]

I also agree with that, Aristotle.

Living and travelling in Thailand are 2 different things.

Work in North East Asia and travel in Thailand, as I've heard it put on the old Dave's ESL Cafe baord.

[itchy]

Louie, Louie: Taiwan kicks Thailand's butt for one reason and one reason only.....MONEY!!

[WorkingVaca]

I could only stand teaching ESL and living in Thailand for about 9 months because well...the money's not good. I met several people that said "I'm going to leave at the end of my contract, but gee....I said that last year." After working on an ESL teacher's salary you'll start to realize that living in Thailand as a foreigner (a rich tourist in the eyes of every business-owner) is more expensive than you originally thought. The problem really hit me when I went to Cambodia for my last Thailand visa run and made a complete ass of myself niggling with the moto-drivers over 1$USD rides.

Now I'm working in Taiwan and will save in one month what it took 4 months to save in Thailand (with 2 jobs). And I disagree on several points "libertine lou" makes on quality of life/standard of living issues in Thailand vs. Taiwan, but that all boils down to personal preference and I don't want to take up too much space here.

There's a lot to like about Thailand: food, weather, beaches (vacation spots), cheap accommodation (but you really do get what you pay for). I would go back for fun, not to live and work.

[stgeorge]

Getting a 2 month tourist visa for Taiwan was easy for me. This can then be easily converted to a work permit. I was unable to get the same for Thailand because the officials insisted on me showing them a return ticket.

I don't think you can generalise. It depends on whether or not you get confronted with some pedantic immigration official.

[Miyazaki]

Teaching in Thailand is financially irresponsible for most people. Unless you're wealthy or have saved up a lot of money, I'd recommend just using Thailand for a place to get in a llittle R&R between EFL contracts in Japan, Korea or Taiwan.