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N_Ashdown · Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 19 Location: Winnipeg, Canada

I was on the U.S. State Department's website today and it said this about Turkey:

"It is illegal to show disrespect to the name or image of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the modern Turkish Republic, or to insult the Turkish government, flag, or security forces."

Is it really illegal to "insult" the government? I thought the newspapers in Turkey are always scrutinizing the government, and I read that Turkish people openly criticize their government. Has anyone here been in awkward or dangerous situations for making taboo comments?

Also, how long does it take to feel comfortable getting around in Turkey (shopping, etc.) when you're just starting to learn Turkish?

By the way, I'll be arriving in Istanbul on the 24th to teach for English Time at the Taksim branch.

justme · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1944 Location: Istanbul

It's illegal when they decide it's illegal. Have you read anything about the Orhan Pamuk case?

As for insulting the government, I had this unclearly explained to me by a Turk, and I still don't get it. You can insult the government, meaning the politicians in power at the moment (though even that isn't 100% protected-- a cartoonist got sued for a wad of money a couple of years ago for an insulting cartoon of Erdoğan portraying him as a cat), but you can't insult the Turkish State. When my friend explained this, I guess what confused me is the difference between the government and the State. He said something like the State is the military and the bureaucracy, which is somehow separate from the goverment. He likened it all to a human body, where the government is like the arm of the Republic and the State is some vital organs-- you can cut off the arm and the organs continue working.

Sure. What it seems to come down to really is that there are certain things that make them go ballistic-- saying anything about Atat�rk that isn't about how wonderful he was, saying anything about Turkey's handling of the Kurdish situation, especially if you mention that any Kurds died at the hands of Turkish soldiers in the last 20 years, and saying anything about the Armenian massacres in the early 1900s. It's the last 2 things that Orhan Pamuk is in trouble for, and he didn't even say that Turks killed the Armenians-- he just said that they died here.

As for your other question, I felt comfortable with most shopping, food shopping I guess, after a couple months. I'm still uncomfortable with clothes shopping because the salespeople cling to you like barnacles which makes me want to run away.

billybuzz · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 219 Location: turkey

Yes its true its not a good idea to openly make negative comments about this country,its administration, the flag, their football team, the Turkish female especially the mothers , any form of abuse you witness to children,animals or any living thing .And never ever on pain of a good kicking say any thing bad about the Turkish god aka Kemal mustafa Ataturk coz even I will shove one up your back passage .
Have a nice day .

justme · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1944 Location: Istanbul

Here's some stuff:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4533664.stm

http://www.complete-review.com/saloon/archive/200512b.htm

It's also bad to say that ayran isn't the best drink ever, and that the fish here isn't the best you've ever eaten. Very awkward. Lots of shouting, arm waving, Black Sea adventure stories....

Baba Alex · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 2411

It all depends who you hang around with in my opinion. Most of my friends and family regard insulting the Turkish state and the great atheist, womanising, alcoholic as a sport.
I think you just have to be careful to be respectful to people whether they are Scottish, Turkish, or a Polish-German-Irish Scouser who's been on the television. Turkish culture has a great tradition of food, so it's nice to compliment the food, and a hyperbole never goes a-miss. Likewise though you shouldn�t insult their intelligence by pretending, as many do, that you are somehow 'freer' or 'more modern' than them by pointing out problems and things that you have a greater understanding of their history and government they do. For example, unless you somehow have to hand some evidence that the rest us don't, it's bad form to talk about the Armenian issue as though it is a forgone conclusion that it was a genocidal massacre.
The other thing is to be aware of the language; I've heard conversations between Brits and Americans where the term 'you' is used a lot to talk about each other�s respective cultures. I've also heard same two turn round to one of their 'Turkish' friends and say
'of course you guys have killed a lot of Kurds'
This was a problem on two levels �
1. Unless a person is highly proficient in a language, that kind of rhetoric doesn't translate well.
2- He was actually of Kurdish origin

Bear in mind that this is still a fairly young republic which has many problems, there is an extreme religious right that many people believe, rightly or wrongly, threaten basic freedoms, and thus it is advisable to tread cautiously.

If however they mention the whole Turkey- T�kiye debate, do tell them they are talking rubbish.

justme · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1944 Location: Istanbul

Ağızını sağlık, Baba. It's no wonder you're so famous...

molly farquharson · Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 839 Location: istanbul

so can someone please clearly explain the Orhan Pamuk debacle? I think one thing they could do is give his books to the judges, who will snooze....

Baba Alex · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 2411

justme · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1944 Location: Istanbul

I loved 'My Name Is Red' and 'Snow.'

The lawyer prosecuting Pamuk claims he didn't understand his books, so they have no literary value whatsoever.

To me, it's sad how foolish this makes Turkey look in the eyes of the international press. For the most part they're better than this. Perhaps I'm imposing my Western value system of freedom here, but I don't think this battle was chosen wisely.

That being said, I also think Mr. Pamuk is making a bit of a play for a Nobel prize. It seems a bit staged by int'l human rights lawyers, and his book sales have skyrocketed. Even the offending quote itself pushes the edges of the law a bit-- he didn't say 'massacre' or 'genocide,' and the numbers he gave of dead Kurds and Armenians are quite a bit lower than those bandied around in the int'l press. Also, he didn't directly say that the Turks did it.

Here's what I don't get-- on one hand, people say the Turkish Republic is so strong and powerful and whatever, but if you ask why people can't speak against it, they say it's because it's weak and at-risk from inside and out. One of those mind boggling dichotomies I can't get my head around.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

'Snow' was number 35th best seller in the UK last week. I wonder if it was because of the trial. Now can anyone explain to me how mehmet ali Agca's prison sentence was miscalculated. Released(to walk in the rain on the Asian Bosphorous) then re-arrested a few days later Confused

billybuzz · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 219 Location: turkey

Basically someone screwed up ,the worst part for me was the amount of applause and cheers he got at the time .That concerns me a lot ,shows there are still large groups here who would like to see another islamic state like Iran .
Freedom of speech is still a luxury that most people don't have including us ,when was the last time you spoke up at a meeting or anywhere for that matter ?

Golightly · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:00 am Post subject:

surprise, surprise.......
turkey drops pamuk case

Baba Alex · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 2411

billybuzz · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 219 Location: turkey

Thanks B.A ,would you like to expand on that a bit more esp whats a hyperbole ?
I'm sure you speak up on the forum here, but ,this is not the same as in the workplace , is it ? . Do you nail your colours to the mast then on a regular basis ? So when people dare to speak up here or say things that maybe you or others find annoying or irratting they get banned right ? Don't mean to wind you up or such just exercising a basic right .

Mikana51 · Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 41 Location: Istanrubble

Interesting discussion. People living as guests in other countries often feel they have a right to enact their own values in the host country. They don't. A guest is a guest and abides by the rules of the host and if he or she cannot do that, leaves.

Freedom of speech is never an unrestricted right, no matter if you're in the Land of the Fee, oops, my bad, Land of the Free, Australia, or Turkey. Some democracies mandate freedom of expression, but only some forms of expression are protected. Slander and libel are never protected and each state uses its juridical system to define slander and libel. You can't criticize the king of Thailand, you can't say that the PM of Australia is a thief unless you can prove it in a court of law, you can't use hate speech against protected groups in the USA. Civil libertarians hate these sorts of limits to expression, but a owrkable civil society needs to be just that: civil. In Turkey it's not civil to say negative things about Ataturk. Sure, from my perspective, Turkey has major issues with human rights, but is it right of me to take those issues up when I"m a foreign worker there? Hmm, maybe it's right ethically, but problematic in terms of the courtesy a guest owes to a host. My habit in similar situations in China, Japan, and the USA where I'm a resident alien, is to buton my lip and send money to Amnesty International, the ACLU, and other groups who fight the good fight in structured and hopefully effective ways.