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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Sweetsee wrote: |
I went to pick up my daughter at nursery school the other day and it is amazing the way the little kids pick up on stuff. First off, some of them scream, "Amerika-jin!" when I come there, less these days as I tend to give them a cool response and I have heard their handlers admonishing them for it. But the other day I thought I would be nice to these 3 or 4 little boys and ask them how they were doing. They laughed and started making fun of the way I said it. I think I said, "Konichiwa o-genki desu ka?" They were like, "Ha-ha-ha, OOO-genki desu ka?" Whatever. Anyway, whenever the tikes give me the Amerika-jin business I calmy reply, "Nihon-jin desu." They freak.
And another thing, I don't remember little kids poking people in the crotch when I was growing up, they seem to be quite comfortable with this.
But in all fairness, just the other day a nice little boy asked me how I got to be so tall or often they run up and tell me to say something in English or they give me a Japanese word they want translated into English.
Ahh little people, what are you going to do?
Enjoy,
s |
That's great. When I am called out as being a "whatever"-jin, I usually put on my "oh dear" face, and exclaim (in Japanese)
"Wow! Humans?! How many of these critters are there?"
うわ～ 人間だ！ 何匹おるかな～
And they tend to go - "Humans? huh?" "or use "-jin" not "biki" etc.
They puzzle over this and then we have a conversation in which I tell them I am actually an alien or a carrot or whatver. They have a good laugh. I have a good laugh. Somebody gets kancho-d and I wait for my next encounter.
Actually, a kid asked me today, since I am a foreigner and can speak "Japanese and English", can I also speak Portugese. That was a first! |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| mrjohndub wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| Yes, if you're in a restaurant or something, people will usually ask the Japanese person in the group. That's not surprising. Most foreigners don't speak Japanese particularly well. And plus, a lot of Japanese have never spoken to a foreigner and simply have no idea how to interact. They just get flustered and they have no idea if the foreigner can understand them. Speaking to a Japanese person is the path of least resistance. |
Yes, Mark, I think that you are mostly correct and make a fine point. However, don't you get the feeling sometimes that many (not all) Japanese regard the language as proprietary...in a way something to be guarded? Something that should be for their exclusive use outside of business dealings and situations that they themselves select?
I think that many view foreigners with a strong command of Japanese with suspicion. I'm not sure why. Perhaps they unconsiously feel part of their culture being diluted by you, and they aren't comfortable with that. Frequently, I find that the same can be true regarding in-depth knowledge of Japanese history, particularly the older parts and that which relates to politics, and as well when it comes to culinary subjects. It's cute that you can use chopsticks and speak a little accent-laden Japanese and demonstrate a small amount of knowledge of Japanese history...you'll get exaggerated praise for it. Maybe they feel flattered in that case. But when you are educated or practiced or fully experienced in some element of their culture, such as cooking complex dishes for entertaining guests, speaking high-level Japanese and understanding what is spoken to you and responding articulately and injecting specific familiarity with Japanese traditions or periods of history into conversation, you can be met with a mix of reactions, none of which seem to involve approval. Surprise in this case is understandable, but the reaction that I most frequently get feels more like, "How the hell do you know that?! You're not supposed to know that."
But isn't it fun when you need to ask somebody a question, maybe at the train station ticket counter, a simple question. And you speak clearly and you know that your speech is correct and should be intelligible to even a child. And maybe you even toss in a quick thinking word at the beginning, to give them a heads up that you will be speaking in Japanese. And then they listen, squirm and say, "I no espeaka English!" and freak out and bring every other person within reach over to the window to try to figure out how to deal with you. I love those situations, they really are amusing. Seriously. The Japanese are a trip. |
As for a proprietary feeling towards the Japanese language, I haven't really noticed that. Sometimes people are surprised, like "Why can you learn Japanese when I can't learn English?", but I don't get much hostility. I'm using the Heisig books to learn Kanji and it's going pretty quickly, so I get some disbelief from Japanese people (how can you learn 200 kanji in a month?) but no hostility.
I also don't get that feeling about Japanese history. I've read some history books so I'm reasonably up on Japanese history and it definitely does surprise people. But, again, I don't get the feeling that people are put off by this.
And I don't get the reaction where I ask something in Japanese and a person says they can't speak English.
Part of this might be location. I live in central Tokyo (Shinjuku-ku) and I rarely go to the burbs anymore, but even when I lived further away, I didn't really get that reaction. What I have gotten is somebody asking me from behind for directions and when I turn around and they see I'm a foreigner, they say gomennasai and hurry away.
I think part of what you're picking up on is just an insider/outsider thing, and I think you'd get it in many countries. I think that if somebody showed up back in Canada and within 6 months or a year was telling Canadians about their history and what was good and bad about the country, people might not take it so well. If you learn the language and history, it's harder to keep you at arm's length.
As well, all of this threatens the Japanese sense of their uniqueness as a people and their sense of collective understanding. So, only Japanese can understand Japan and all Japanese understand it the same way. I think it's fair to say that this is one of Japan's national myths. "Well, we Japanese people think....."
And, you know, it's not that different than the way foreigners treat Japanese people. I can only speak from my own personal experience, but I think most foreigners don't treat Japanese like real people. They keep the kid gloves on and act like a goofy Nova-style entertainer.
I'll give you an example. I had a co-worker with a Japanese wife who spoke English semi-decently but not all that well. A bunch of people went out and to me, the guy was talking about Japan and how stupid it was and blah blah blah and then would turn to his wife and make some silly goofy comment. She couldn't understand what he was saying to me, so she had no idea what he was talking about. To me, that just seems incredibly disrespectful.
So, yeah, Japanese might not treat foreigners well, but I think that many foreigners use, abuse and take advantage of Japanese like nobody's business. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
I haven't really had this problem so much. If I ask something, people usually respond to me. If I don't understand, they might turn to my friend.
Yes, if you're in a restaurant or something, people will usually ask the Japanese person in the group. That's not surprising. Most foreigners don't speak Japanese particularly well. And plus, a lot of Japanese have never spoken to a foreigner and simply have no idea how to interact. They just get flustered and they have no idea if the foreigner can understand them. Speaking to a Japanese person is the path of least resistance. |
Completely missing the point here Mark...what if you do speak good, intelligble Japanese and they still look at your Japanese friend?
Kind of makes you think, "Who the $^%$ am I talking to, the walls?"
I'm not talking about foreigners who can't speak Japanese, I'm talking about foreigners who demonstrate a good understanding of the language and are ignored.
When I talk to someone, I expect they will respond. Especially if it's their job (waiter, store clerk, etc.) |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: living in Japan |
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Sorry Matador, maybe I and Gordan need a vacation!  Then again, posting in this forum feels like a vacation! |
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johanne
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think we are talking about a phenomenon that exists in many parts of the world, not just Japan, with much of this depending on where in a country you are and how used people are to foriegners. As I mentioned above my husband has this problem in Florida, but when we went to Seattle, New York or Hawaii there was no problem - almost everybody answered him directly when he spoke with barely a glance at me. We lived in Vancouver for 7 years and it wasn't an issue at all since there are so many ESL speakers there that it is second nature for everyone to communicate without too much concern for the level of English.
My husband did get very annoyed in Florida and in fact hates going there because of the reaction he gets to his English, so I also think that the way some people here are reacting to Japanese not being willing to acknowledge that they are speaking in decent Japanese is also a fairly universal reaction.
When I visited the French part of Belgium some people would switch over to English on me, even though my French is fluent, and I would get a bit annoyed.
Here in Japan I live in a section of Yokohama where there are 2 international schools so the shops I go into and the people I talk to are very used to foreigners who speak some Japanese and I experience very little of what others are describing in this thread, whether I am on my own or with my husband.
I also thought it was funny that bit about someone being asked for directions and then getting a gomenasai when the person realized they were a foriegner. Actually I've been asked for directions a few times by Japanese who appeared to go where I told them.
I've also had conversation with people that are 90% in Japanese and the Japanese person would throw in an English word that they knew when it fit in. I thought that was pretty funny.
Sendrigo, I think your idea of speaking Spanish could be very amusing. I would sometimes speak French when I didn't want someone to practice their English on me. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Florida deserves your husbands hatred. I've lived on both coasts for very short periods of time, and at least 80% of the population should consider seppuku for the good of humanity. |
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BradS
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 173
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| johanne wrote: |
I also thought it was funny that bit about someone being asked for directions and then getting a gomenasai when the person realized they were a foriegner. Actually I've been asked for directions a few times by Japanese who appeared to go where I told them.
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This actually happened tonight to me but on our intercom in our building! A guy buzzed in and I responded with a big "Hellooooooo!" (because I was expecting my flatmate to return). The man on the other end asked me if I spoke Japanese (I do, enough to understand his question anyway) but before I could answer he had tagged two quick "SORRY! SORRY!"s onto the end of his question and he hung up.
Wierd... |
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BradS
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 173
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| johanne wrote: |
I also thought it was funny that bit about someone being asked for directions and then getting a gomenasai when the person realized they were a foriegner. Actually I've been asked for directions a few times by Japanese who appeared to go where I told them.
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This actually happened tonight to me but on our intercom in our building! A guy buzzed in and I responded with a big "Hellooooooo!" (because I was expecting my flatmate to return). The man on the other end asked me if I spoke Japanese (I do, enough to understand his question anyway) but before I could answer he had tagged two quick "SORRY! SORRY!"s onto the end of his question and he hung up.
Wierd... |
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seanmcginty
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| SEndrigo wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
I haven't really had this problem so much. If I ask something, people usually respond to me. If I don't understand, they might turn to my friend.
Yes, if you're in a restaurant or something, people will usually ask the Japanese person in the group. That's not surprising. Most foreigners don't speak Japanese particularly well. And plus, a lot of Japanese have never spoken to a foreigner and simply have no idea how to interact. They just get flustered and they have no idea if the foreigner can understand them. Speaking to a Japanese person is the path of least resistance. |
Completely missing the point here Mark...what if you do speak good, intelligble Japanese and they still look at your Japanese friend?
Kind of makes you think, "Who the $^%$ am I talking to, the walls?"
I'm not talking about foreigners who can't speak Japanese, I'm talking about foreigners who demonstrate a good understanding of the language and are ignored.
When I talk to someone, I expect they will respond. Especially if it's their job (waiter, store clerk, etc.) |
Yeah, that sort of thing used to happen to me all the time when I was in Japan and it drove me nuts. They used to always expect my Japanese wife to do the talking.
Mind you, its not such a bad thing. After a while it provided me with the perfect excuse to just ignore people. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Hey sean,
Good on ya, that's what I do most of the time when that happens!
And you're right, perhaps it's not such a bad thing after all....perhaps it's better to pretend like you don't understand anything in the beginning, and then unleash a full verbal assault on them  |
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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| I will admit that my Japanese sucks, but I still feel a little funny when deferring to my 4 1/2 year young daughter. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| SEndrigo wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
I haven't really had this problem so much. If I ask something, people usually respond to me. If I don't understand, they might turn to my friend.
Yes, if you're in a restaurant or something, people will usually ask the Japanese person in the group. That's not surprising. Most foreigners don't speak Japanese particularly well. And plus, a lot of Japanese have never spoken to a foreigner and simply have no idea how to interact. They just get flustered and they have no idea if the foreigner can understand them. Speaking to a Japanese person is the path of least resistance. |
Completely missing the point here Mark...what if you do speak good, intelligble Japanese and they still look at your Japanese friend?
Kind of makes you think, "Who the $^%$ am I talking to, the walls?"
I'm not talking about foreigners who can't speak Japanese, I'm talking about foreigners who demonstrate a good understanding of the language and are ignored.
When I talk to someone, I expect they will respond. Especially if it's their job (waiter, store clerk, etc.) |
No, I got the point, I just don't have this experience. When I speak to people, they speak back to me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen to people, but it's not really something that I've experienced. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetsee wrote: |
| I will admit that my Japanese sucks, but I still feel a little funny when deferring to my 4 1/2 year young daughter. |
Sweetsee, sometimes you really crack me up. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetsee wrote: |
| I will admit that my Japanese sucks, but I still feel a little funny when deferring to my 4 1/2 year young daughter. |
 I've done this before when i couldn't think of a word and she's no more Japanese than I am. The thing is she doesn't forget a word, that's what happens with age. BTW, she is 4 too, too bad you live so far away. |
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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Guest,
I'll take that as a compliment!
Enjoy,
s |
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