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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| by attaching a lower salary to a probational period then it must have an economic context!!!! |
Whatever. I'm talking about the semantics of the word. I don't think "economical" collocates with "probation." That may seem like putting a very fine point on things, but I submit that a lot of arguments and misunderstandings come from sloppy communications. I'm not arguing the economics of the point, though. We agree. I'm just pointing out how I believe (and I could be wrong) the words are correctly used.
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| what has this to do with wage levels - can parties better judge each other when there is less money passing between them |
100% agreement here. You are right, and I am again called out for my own sloppy communication.
What my school does with the wages (as stated above) is for entry-level teachers. More experienced teachers can and often do negotiate a better salary. I have one guy who came in at an agreed 7000RMB salary for the entire year. That's what he wanted (he asked for more of course) and he got it. He still had the probationary period, but it didn't have any economical restrictions tied to it.
This is fairly common in my school, and I support the teachers if I think they have the experience to come in and not require a lot of hand-holding in the first few months.
The lower salary is indicative of the amount of help the teacher requires. Even if the teacher isn't costing the school money in that time, the chances are good that he or she MIGHT do, by losing students or having students insist on a different teacher. But they certainly require a lot of hours from the other, higher-paid teachers to help them learn the ropes. THOSE teachers don't mind providing that kind of support because they know the newbie is making less money. This helps us get more of a team effort, and the new teachers get the support they need from the ones who have been here longer.
It's perfectly fair, considering - again - that even the entry-level pay is a fair salary for the job.
(Edited out a bit of baiting here - Sorry!) |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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a gregor quote from an earlier post
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| Also - we start at, say, 5000 RMB. That's the probationary rate. Not a bad salary. Not great, but not bad. I know some people who work happily for well under that. Really, I don't see this thread's point. Because even if a salary is negotiable (and of course it is), the probationary period won't be. If you balk at the idea of a probationary period, then you can just take your ball and go home, because it ain't gonna be taken out of the contract. |
when I start to compare this - note how the term probationary rate is used - with his latest post -
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| I have one guy who came in at an agreed 7000RMB salary for the entire year. That's what he wanted (he asked for more of course) and he got it. He still had the probationary period, but it didn't have any economical restrictions tied to it. |
I start to get mightly confused - must be fun working in your perticular branch of EF with all those unexpected variables  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| As a footnote to my posts - I would like to conclude it seems that bad and sloppy communications lead to many misunderstandings - the last few posts if nothing more illustrate this fact, and this is when the two posters are using a common first language - so imagine the scope for "misunderstanding" with a Chinese boss. With this in mind - then, I believe, it's in your own interest to get a deal that ensures an easy to understand constant wage divorced from probation period et al - because this gives you a little protection from all those nasty variables that will surely pop in and out of the wheeler-dealing with your Chinese employers. And try and call a spade a spade - a probation period, a long term employment incentive (even if long term is this game for most of us is only 1 year) and a training period are 3 different things!!! I personally would start to wonder about the professional competence of my boss, especially if he was western, if he started to confuse these three and lump them all together, but if it was a Chinese boss - well I'd just be watching my back or at least my pay check |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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a gregor quote from an earlier post
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Also - we start at, say, 5000 RMB. That's the probationary rate. Not a bad salary. Not great, but not bad. I know some people who work happily for well under that. Really, I don't see this thread's point. Because even if a salary is negotiable (and of course it is), the probationary period won't be. If you balk at the idea of a probationary period, then you can just take your ball and go home, because it ain't gonna be taken out of the contract.
when I start to compare this - note how the term probationary rate is used - with his latest post -
Quote:
I have one guy who came in at an agreed 7000RMB salary for the entire year. That's what he wanted (he asked for more of course) and he got it. He still had the probationary period, but it didn't have any economical restrictions tied to it.
I start to get mightly confused - must be fun working in your perticular branch of EF with all those unexpected variables |
How is this confusing in the least? There's a probationary period. Non-nogotiable. The salary very much is, for more experienced teachers. Why would this be confusing to even YOU? It certainly doesn't effect MY job - I don't pay these people - and though it DOES effect the accountant's job, well, why else would you have an accountant? Really, vikdk, I don't see any confusion, mixed signals, or contradictions in here at all. What am I missing?
The term "probationary rate"? That means "the rate of pay during the probationary period." Really, seriously, did you find that confusing in the least bit? Did anyone else?? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Another important thing to remember - even though we have been told that the probation period is a two sided tool - boss and teacher can eye each other up and decide yes or no - with the inclusion of a probationary salary this tool is much more pro employer than employee.
Just think some bright faced silver tongued management fellow tells you how his firm can support, pay and house you within the protective confines of their jolly little team - when in reality you find out that you have to work long hours, share an apartment, are working on an F visa (remember even some big chains will employ those without a degree - which is necessary to legally obtain a Z visa http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=35381 ). Not your cup of tea, not your fault, you want to leave, which you are perfectly entitled to do - but you have to accept a lower salary in return for this right - a basic right of an employee which at least the international chains operating in China might offer to their teachers as do in their countries of origin - free of a financial sting. No, a probationary rate means financial penalization for invoking the employees rights that go with a probationary period - In my books a little fishy and not fair - but then I'm speaking from the position of a teacher, maybe the management has further comments on this situation |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Not your cup of tea, not your fault, you want to leave, which you are perfectly entitled to do - but you have to accept a lower salary in return for this right - a basic right of an employee which at least the international chains operating in China might offer to their teachers as do in their countries of origin - free of a financial sting. No, a probationary rate means financial penalization for invoking the employees rights that go with a probationary period |
With all this talk of rights, surely the school has the right to decide upon their employment terms provided that they are not breaking the law.
Bear in mind that the teacher has the ultimate right of walking away from any job offer that he or she doesn't like.
I don't think that things can be any more simple or reasonable than that! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| With all this talk of rights, surely the school has the right to decide upon their employment terms provided that they are not breaking the law. |
of course they do - but then again if they start doing something which on the face of it can be assumed to be against the best interests of the FT - the least we can do is warn hopefull new recruits to this game - anyways probationary pay rates, why not show them for what they , another potential FT trap - why support them???? |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: "The Probationary Period" |
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[quote="Gregor"]........................................................................
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More experienced teachers can and often do negotiate a better salary. I have one guy who came in at an agreed 7000RMB salary for the entire year. That's what he wanted (he asked for more of course) and he got it. He still had the probationary period, but it didn't have any economical restrictions tied to it.
This is fairly common in my school, and I support the teachers if I think they have the experience to come in and not require a lot of hand-holding in the first few months.
The lower salary is indicative of the amount of help the teacher requires. ......................................................................
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That above is quite a fair statement, Gregor. I feel you on that "hand-holding" issue too.
7,000 RMB is either a standard senior teacher's contract of EF or maybe a corporate deal where your teacher teaches corporate cliental mostly or exclusively. Otherwise, it is hard to imagine that the figure is an EF standard contract, is it Gregor?
A franchise should have some fixed figures when it comes to salaries, should it not? Otherwise one center of one franchise gets an unfair adge over others due to that non standard figures. I hope that you are following me on this one Gregor.
That 5,000 probationary pay is a slap in the face of EF teachers. The EF franchise has been arround for quite some time, but it has not seen such treatment before. Well, at least before 2004-5. Blended Learning, New EF Contracts and varieties of Head Office Management techniques as well as Owners fury/anger over the affairs. Franchisers wanted to calm the owners down and the Probationary salaries are a result of that Gregor.
Cheers and beers |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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englishgibson, I followed you up to a point. I lost you here:
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| That 5,000 probationary pay is a slap in the face of EF teachers. The EF franchise has been around for quite some time, but it has not seen such treatment before. Well, at least before 2004-5. Blended Learning, New EF Contracts and varieties of Head Office Management techniques as well as Owners fury/anger over the affairs. Franchisers wanted to calm the owners down and the Probationary salaries are a result of that Gregor. |
As Clark pointed out, a teacher doesn't have to work for any salary he or she doesn't want to. How is the 5000RMB a slap in the face to ANYONE? When I first got to EF China, 5000RMB was the salary. Full-stop. Then they decided to raise the entry-level salary...but not until after the probationary period. It's still plainly explicit how much they'll make. That's the first thing I tell a teacher.
What did THIS mean? : "New EF Contracts and varieties of Head Office Management techniques as well as Owners fury/anger over the affairs."
Is there a verb in there? If so, I missed it, and thus missed the point you are trying to make. I really, truly don't understand than sentence. Because it's YOU, I assume it's a negative comment, but that guess is based entirely on who wrote the sentence. I honestly didn't follow it.
Then you wrote, "Franchisers wanted to calm the owners down and the Probationary salaries are a result of that Gregor." I understand this sentence, but not the sentiment. Why would the franchisers want or need to "calm down" the owners? This is news to me. EF franchise owners are pretty happy. They have almost complete autonomy. They can do ALMOST whatever they want. As far as I know, owners don't have to use the new contracts, they don't have to do Blended Learning, and the head office is in no position to do any sort of management with the local franchises. They WANT to, but the owners hold all the high cards. So why would they be upset?
Whatever you mean to express here, EF salaries didn't go down. They went UP. Who would complain about that? They just didn't go up for anyone until they finished their first three months. That seems reasonable to me. As long as I've been in China (since early 2003), the teachers started at 5000RMB a month. No one complained about that, especially once they got here and learned that some places pay less than that, AND they don't pay for housing. EF does (it's shared, with the option of a housing allowance, and THIS is no secret either - that's the SECOND thing I tell teachers before they come out).
As for the bit about the standard contract - it sounds like you've worked VERY BRIEFLY at an EF at some point. Yes, there IS a standard salary for entry-level teachers, as I've said. And the contract has ALWAYS had the probationary period built into it. Always. There is NOTHING NEW about that. The only change is that the salary goes up when the probationary period ends (and again three months after THAT, by the way).
But that's not a LAW. A school can pay as much as it wants to. This guy came to us with lots of experience. He's not a senior teacher or a corporate instructor or anything else. Just standard EF FT. But he came with a lot of experience, and we wanted him, so we agreed to a higher salary.
Is it really that complicated? I find it amazing that you people are SO confused about what I've written. I haven't been cryptic, and, unlike Mr. gibson, I'm using VERBS AND EVERYTHING.
EF never raised the DoS salary in the standard contract. And yet, when I went from Shenyang to Dalian, I negotiated a higher salary, Why not? I had two years' experience at that point. Why take the entry salary for an EF DoS if I don't have to? And the school was free to hire me at a higher salary. Sure, there's competition, even between other EF centers. Maybe another EF would have wanted me but wouldn't pay what I wanted. That's perfectly fair.
My impression, englishgibson, is, A) You think you know more than you do about EF, B) You aren't thinking in terms of normal jobs - salaries are negotiated all the time out in the "real world," so why not here? And C) Something I edited out because the mods might (rightly) say it was uncalled-for and take out the whole post. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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oh deary me lets get away from the personal stuff and back to the question of probationary pay rates.
Dear Gregor as a teacher - not a company man - can you see any real reason for a probationary wage rate apart from there is potential saving in money for the company if the employee and employer have to part company during the probationary period - you talk, in an earlier post, of the new teacher potentialy costing your company money - something about loosing students, but surely a large responsible company like yours wouldn't let loose the unqualified into the classroom environment before they were adequately trained |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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WHAT?? No. WHAT??
What are you talking about?
I won't let a teaxcher into a classroom until he or she is trained to deal with OUR classes and our school's cultue. What are you talking about?
This is why entry-level teachers need hand-holding.
Really, vikdk, are you just bound and determined to find problems with my school? My syntax? ME?? What is your problem? Seriously. No one reading this thread would find any problem with anything I've talked about. If you have a problem with ME, what the hell IS it?? |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: "The Probationary Period" |
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Nothing personal and sticking to the probationary period as well as EF experiences of one current EF Director of Studies on this forum,
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| Whatever you mean to express here, EF salaries didn't go down. They went UP. Who would complain about that? They just didn't go up for anyone until they finished their first three months. |
That is not true at all!
The Probationary salary for one year contract is 5,000 for first three months, 5,500 for following 6 months and 6,000 for the last three months of that one year "standard EF contract". Now, 5,500 has been a standard monthly salary for the first year in EF centers except Shanghai's centers for a long time. So, the last three months of 6,000 only balances it off into that 5,500 over all.
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| That seems reasonable to me. As long as I've been in China (since early 2003), the teachers started at 5000RMB a month. |
And that's not true again!
Standard EF contracts for first year teachers in 2003 were with 5,500 monthly from the 1st month till the 12th month and there were NO probationary salaries. It had been like that before in EF centers and then the unfortunate year 2004 as I mentioned previously changed it and brought EF standard contracts with probationary three months of 5,000 and last three months of first year contract at 6,000. Where have you been body?
Have you been working at some kinda EF "clone", because they have quite a few around.
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englishgibson, I followed you up to a point. I lost you here:
Quote:
That 5,000 probationary pay is a slap in the face of EF teachers. The EF franchise has been around for quite some time, but it has not seen such treatment before. Well, at least before 2004-5. Blended Learning, New EF Contracts and varieties of Head Office Management techniques as well as Owners fury/anger over the affairs. Franchisers wanted to calm the owners down and the Probationary salaries are a result of that Gregor.
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A slap in the face of teachers it is!
The EF centers' owners renegotiated standard EF contracts with EF Head Office in Shanghai prior to the Investors/Center Managers/Directors of Studies conference 2004 (March) there. The new contracts with probationary salaries for first three months of contracts came at that conference and were to be enforced by April 2004 by individual centers. Probationary salaries were a request of the Investors/EF centers' owners. EF Head Office had to give them something since they were so angry on the Blended Learning (new EF product) that time. Many walked out of the conference, but where were you???
Probationary salaries are not a standard for EF franchised centers in many countries around the world. China's EF has been one exception since 2004.
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Is it really that complicated? I find it amazing that you people are SO confused about what I've written. I haven't been cryptic, and, unlike Mr. gibson, I'm using VERBS AND EVERYTHING.
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I am not confused, but amused. Yes, you are "using VERBS AND EVERYTHING" and actually more than that. I understand you very well, but it seems that you do not understand MANY PEOPLE. I wish, you didn't have to be so hostile.
Now, I hope you will not "confuse people with your writting", VERBS AND EVERYTHING" anymore, and give them the true prospective of living and working in China.
I believe that you must have worked hard wherever you are, so I do have a respect for you. I have done what you've done so I know it.
And I also hope that you are not "lost again".
Peace to all
And
Cheers and beers |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Gregor I'm afraid you havn't really answered the important part of the question - that relating to the probation period.
Gregor as a teacher can you see any real reason for a probationary wage rate apart from there is potential saving in money for the company if the employee and employer have to part company during the probationary period.
Please answer as an ordinary Joe FT -you don't have to bring company or anything into this. As a new FT did you have to go onto a probationary wage rate when you started working overseas? |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Splitting hairs, are we?
I have personally never had to submit to a reduced salary during my probation period (when was the last time I was on probation?), but I can't see why an employer should not get away with pushing this through. I am not in favour of it but the employer will certainly find justification for such salary cuts. FOr example, he might argue recruiting yet another (replacement) teacher costs him extra money in adverts and time he wastes hiring a new face and in redarranging the timetable of students and of other teachers replacing an FT temporarily until a final choice can be made.
Surely the uncertainties of hiring a foreign teacher add to the overheads of any school? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Surely the uncertainties of hiring a foreign teacher add to the overheads of any school? |
surely the uncertainties of teaching jobs in China add to the overheads of the FT - why the economic burden pushed on our lap, we get paid little enough in the first place |
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