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cliveloughlin
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: Trusted Recruiters in China |
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Hi All
Just a very quick question - has anyone used a really good, trustworthy recruitment agency in China?? I have been receiving emails from SO many but I'm unsure as to who is actually genuine....especially as so many of them use hotmail/yahoo email addresses!
Any names/contact details of GOOD recruiters would be VERY welcome.
Best
Clive
PS - I have been approached by Elite ESL and New Times International - they both sound too good to be true - any views about them??[/b] |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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My recommendations would be:
New Times International
Buckland Group
The China Teaching Network
One World Development Corporation
No promises that you will find everything to be perfect with these companies but I think that you can be safe in the knowledge that you won't be ripped off and will be provided with a level of service. Of course not everyone will agree on this, but I haven't yet seen any evidence that would make me change my views.
Whoever you choose, make sure that you do an appropriate level of research about them on the net and also be sure to ask them for contact details for past and present teachers.
As always, you don't really need a recruiter as there are plenty of opportunities to contact schools directly, but there are some benefits to dealing through a recruiter. |
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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| I would not be so worried about a hotmail or yahoo mail address. Many people use these here. |
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Voldermort
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: |
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The only good service I have had from a recruiter is from New Times International located in Shijiazhuang. I have worked few a through so called job placement agencies in China, and it was a total nightmare.
With New Times you can expect a fairly decent level of service, but the best part is they will always cover your back when and if things start going sour.
The two I would avoid at all costs are Jilin international and Simon language club, both located in Changchun. You would be signing away your own life if ever you decided to work through one of these sheep farms. |
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chengdude
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 294
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I would not be so worried about a hotmail or yahoo mail address. Many people use these here. |
True, but as every Chinese student is fond of saying/writing, "Every coin has two sides." I'm patiently working through the second term of a contract that was arranged by a very unscrupulous recruiter based in Beijing. His agency uses Yahoo.com.cn e-mail addresses to their full, disposable potential. I have seen upwards of 20 identified by several of his placements/vicitims in their online gripes and I'm sure plenty more have been used as far back as you care to look. I haven't perused the job sites recently, so I can't say if this pattern continues to the day or if they've adjusted strategies.
The real key, for me, is to identify job postings with very similar descriptions of working conditions & benefits. Salaries are usually adjusted in these types of ads, but the rest of the conditions are suspiciously similar. Descriptions of the school are often vague as well. Guaranteed if you identify a serial poster of these types of ads, they will be using disposable e-mail addresses (Yahoo, et al) with a range of user ID's. And guaranteed if you fall in with an agency like this, their No. 1 priority will be the fee they can extract from the school for placing you, not providing any meaningful, detailed, and/or truthful information about the actual conditions...because in almost all cases, they really don't know or care. |
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Sinobear
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 1269
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
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For the same amount of time and trouble, YOU can be your own recruiter. Research where you want to go, what type of students you want to teach, what terms and conditions you want (or are willing to accept) and find a school that matches your criteria.
These posts ALWAYS end up being a non-paid advertisement from people with business dealings with recruiters. Imagine finding yourself placed at a school where you're being paid 3.5K a month via a recruiter, when someone else is getting 8K a month because they negotiated the position themselves.
Good luck! |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Just a very quick question - has anyone used a really good, trustworthy recruitment agency in China?? I have been receiving emails from SO many but I'm unsure as to who is actually genuine....especially as so many of them use hotmail/yahoo email addresses! |
if i was writing to the pakistani secretary of state for a job and his email was [email protected], then i'd be suspicious. but here in asia, many businesses and independent consultants seem to use yahoo or hotmail freely for official email.
7969 |
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cliveloughlin
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: Recruiters - Thanks |
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Hi again
Thanks so much for your posts - I have been approached by New Times Int'l and think that I will see what they have to offer.
Also, I will try to find a post for myself with a college/Uni in my chosen areas - maybe ShenZhen, BeiJing or somewhere close to these 2 (e.g. TianJin/GuangZhou/Shijiazhuang).
If anyone has any ideas on who I should contact with any of the schools/colleges in the above areas, I would be extremely grateful! Do you have any idea how much I could make by contacting the schools direct? I have noticed that most recruiters offer only about 4500-5000 in their adverts.
Enjoy...
Cj |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Recruiters - Thanks |
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| cliveloughlin wrote: |
| If anyone has any ideas on who I should contact with any of the schools/colleges in the above areas, I would be extremely grateful! Do you have any idea how much I could make by contacting the schools direct? |
I think that this is an excellent question, and it might be one for Sinobear considering his earlier comments.
I don�t disagree with Sinobear entirely. Of course going through the school directly is a legitimate option and one that should not be overlooked, but I don�t think that it is as simple as some would make it seem nor is it a guarantee of a problem free run.
I assume that Sinobears comments were aimed at me for the fact that I answered the OP�s question and posted some names that of places that I consider to offer better than average opportunities. I am used to the old �he must have a vested interest in posting these recommendations� but I don�t and I welcome anyone to show otherwise. Probably more to the point however, rather than concentrating on the messenger, would be to concentrate on the message.
Here are my questions for you Sinobear, and I welcome you to answer in the interests of providing valuable information for this thread:
1. If you believe that the companies I have listed above do not deserve to be recommended then please explain why each of these companies is not worthy of a recommendation. I am not talking about general recruiter slagging, but instead specific information about these specific companies.
2. I assume that you are not just anti-recruiter for the sake of it, and therefore I assume that you could maybe recommend a recruiter of two that would be worth dealing with if someone was determined to use a recruiter.
3. Where would you recommend that teachers turn to in order to contact schools directly and avoid recruiters? The reason that I ask this is that some recruiters have taken to posting under the name of schools and thereby misrepresenting who they really are. These are often the sorts of recruiters that someone referred to earlier that use hotmail and yahoo addresses. As such an unwary teacher who avoided otherwise good recruitment companies in the search for a position directly offered through a school may find themselves unknowingly working through one of the less desirable recruiters in the industry.
4. Finally, I assume that you are not suggesting that recruiters are the only sharks in the industry and that schools themselves can also be guilty of serve serving practices, so are you leading newbies into a false sense of security by perhaps suggesting that if you avoid recruiters then you will be alright
It seems to me that whether you choose to go with a school or a recruiter, research and preparation is the key to finding a good job. I believe that research on the companies that I have listed above will bring out both positive and negative comments, but that the positive far outweigh the negative and that the negative generally relate to personal issues with these companies. |
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Sinobear
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 1269
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: |
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No, my post was not directed at anyone in particular...just to point out to Newbies that some people do have a vested interest in supporting certain recruiters and Newbies should keep that in mind when soliciting advice. What prompted my initial post in this thread was a post that read like an advertisement for a certain recruiter and a response to that post from a certain prolific poster who immediately and unequivocally supported that poster ( http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=33778&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 ).
To answer your questions, Clark:
1. One company Clark listed is run by a snake whose (unofficial) motto is, "Promises cost nothing." One school that I was employed by (via abroadchina.org) paid me 8K a month, all inclusive. I negotiated with the school and even rewrote most of the contract to my liking. Mr. Snake sent several Newbies to the same school. They were paid 3.5K monthly. I was discussing this situation with both the teachers and with the school administration. It turns out that Mr. Snake promised the school fully legal and qualified teachers whilst promoting the positions as �English coaches� to the teachers. I had the opportunity to talk with Mr. Snake at length during a visit to a nearby city and was appalled at his lack of knowledge concerning visas, contract issues, and a teacher�s salary negotiation leverage. I�m not saying that others haven�t had the time of their lives by being placed by Mr. Snake�only that his company is not doing the best for either the teachers or the schools it deals with.
Recruiters are often contacted and contracted by schools that have a horrid track record with dealing with foreigners. The recruiters want the contract fees and the cut for supplying the �meat�. Someone will eventually get the, �This is how it is in China� speech and accept a raw deal out of ignorance.
2. I have used abroadchina.org for the past two years. I get emails from time-to-time with offers or schools that are interested in me. I�m quite happy where I am now (a position I found on my own), but it�s nice that they take the time to only email me with offers that match my criteria. I�m not anti-recruiter�but I do think that settling for less is not in the best interests of a dedicated teacher. Why make both the school and recruiter rich when you do most of the work? Cut a piece of the pie for yourself as a reward for a job well done.
3. Where can teachers find the schools that are in accordance with their criteria? They�re using it now. The Internet. Many schools have websites that can be found by intuitive searches on Yahoo or Google. Can�t understand Chinese? Use this: http://babelfish.altavista.com/
How about word of mouth? You can ask for recommendations from other past or present teachers.
Blacklists and Greenlists � although a noble idea, do little to reflect the school�s CURRENT administration and their practices.
If you find yourself in a good-sized Chinese city, you can use these weird appendages called �legs� to walk yourself to different schools. If you know that they are legally entitled to hire foreigners, display some interest and take a little tour. Perhaps that school isn�t hiring now, but getting your foot in the door can help a little down the road.
4. I�m not suggesting that going it on one�s own guarantees a happy, safe, and secure position. I�m suggesting that a prospective teacher can have far greater control over his/her China experience/career by controlling their own fate rather than leaving everything to the �discretion� of a recruiter.
Quite frankly, if you�re not willing and able to do the necessary research and legwork prior to obtaining a position, and you will not stand up for yourself and your own best interests�you really shouldn�t consider teaching in China. There are many volunteer organizations that would love to have you come and do some good for others whilst having your �China experience.�
Remember, too, that some people won�t openly support their school because it is a �goldmine� that they want to keep to themselves�others get so disenchanted by their experience that they only want to forget the whole period of their lives.
Cheers! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I agree with a lot of what you say.
I assume that
| Sinobear wrote: |
| Recruiters are often contacted and contracted by schools that have a horrid track record with dealing with foreigners. The recruiters want the contract fees and the cut for supplying the �meat�. Someone will eventually get the, �This is how it is in China� speech and accept a raw deal out of ignorance. |
This is very true. Sometimes schools that are unable to hire directly due to bad reputations or for other negative reasons, will rely upon recruiters to fill positions. In these cases any recruiter that continues to make placements in these cases I would agree that these types of companies should be avoided and I believe that in most cases the word is out about these companies, which is good.
But this is why I feel that it is so valuable to promote the good companies that are out there.
| Sinobear wrote: |
| Many schools have websites that can be found by intuitive searches on Yahoo or Google. Can�t understand Chinese? Use this: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ |
Agreed, but there are limitations to this. As you probably know I am involved with the compilation of an extensive list of schools in China and through this work I am aware of the inadequacies of such information. It is true that schools may have websites, and some of the larger ones even have English websites, but it can be difficult to find these unless you know the actual name of the school you are searching for. This often limits users to a certain number of schools for which competition is high, while there are many other lesser known schools that offer good opportunities that may only be uncovered by on the ground experience.
| Sinobear wrote: |
| How about word of mouth? You can ask for recommendations from other past or present teachers. |
Wouldn�t it be great if there was a website that archived such recommendations for future reference!
The problem is that as soon as someone makes a positive comment about a school or recruiter the suggestion is inevitably made that this person must have a vested interest in making such a recommendation. Personally I think that this is sad that teachers cannot support good schools by posting that they had a good time there but it does seem to me that this is just the way it is.
| Sinobear wrote: |
| Blacklists and Greenlists � although a noble idea, do little to reflect the school�s CURRENT administration and their practices. |
I certainly agree that there are limitation to such lists. They do tend to get abused and are often used by people with motives other than a genuine desire to share information. Having said this I do believe that such lists can be a valuable reference source provided that they contain a quantity or quality comments. At the end of the day these lists will only be as good as teachers permit them to be, and the only way to do this is to support these lists by posting about individual experiences as fairly and honestly as possible. If we don�t support such lists by providing information for other teachers when they need it, then we are hardly in a position to complain about such information not existing when we need it.
| Sinobear wrote: |
| If you find yourself in a good-sized Chinese city, you can use these weird appendages called �legs� to walk yourself to different schools. If you know that they are legally entitled to hire foreigners, display some interest and take a little tour. Perhaps that school isn�t hiring now, but getting your foot in the door can help a little down the road. |
Although practical for Taiwan and as you suggest, the bigger cities in China, this advice is unfortunately impractical for most of China. China is just so large, the schools so far between, and often so difficult to find, that attempting to walk around and just find schools would become a very time consuming and tiring exercise.
| Sinobear wrote: |
| Quite frankly, if you�re not willing and able to do the necessary research and legwork prior to obtaining a position, and you will not stand up for yourself and your own best interests�you really shouldn�t consider teaching in China. |
I totally agree with this. The individual can be his own best friend or worst enemy depending upon how well he or she prepares him/herself for the time in China.
| Sinobear wrote: |
| Remember, too, that some people won�t openly support their school because it is a �goldmine� that they want to keep to themselves�others get so disenchanted by their experience that they only want to forget the whole period of their lives. |
Again I totally agree with. Fortunately these two groups are the fringe minorities and most of us fall in the middle. Wouldn�t it be great if the majority had their say even if it was just simple information about the day to day practices of the school. Just think of the wealth of information that would be out there if every teacher in China posted a paragraph or two about the school/s that they work for. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
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C people do post info on experiences, but it it's too critical they risk being chewed up by a 5000 word long post from the forum ayotollahs. How much useful info has been camouflarged by these long-winded rants  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| C people do post info on experiences, but it it's too critical they risk being chewed up by a 5000 word long post from the forum ayotollahs. How much useful info has been camouflarged by these long-winded rants |
Actually I don't agree that this is the case at all.
People who post negative experiences about schools and who outline their concerns in a reasonable manner leave no room for critical debate. It is the people who make posts of a generalistic or overtly shallow or personal nature that leave themselves open to such questioning. In those cases where these posts do become a cause for debate the questions that come from those questioning the OP seem to me to be quite relevant to the points that the person makes in his or her original complaint. That person has the opportunity to show why they feel the way that they do about that company, but often they fail to do this and instead choose to attack those that have the hide to ask a question about the complaints.
In the case of positive comments about companies there is often no direct questioning about the company by the detractors, but instead an immediate assumption is made that the person must be getting a benefit for making such a post.
It seems clear to me that those who want to complain about a school or company will do so regardless of what transpires on forums such as this one. I have no problem with that as I believe that the majority of users of such forums can determine legitimate from illegitimate complaints.
My concern is that people with positive or even neutral comments to make about a school or recruiter may decide that it is not worth the trouble as they will find themselves having to attempt to defend themselves rather than the content of the posts that they make.
I think that this is a loss to the users of forums such as this one as we end up with such one sided information. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| My concern is that people with positive or even neutral comments to make about a school or recruiter may decide that it is not worth the trouble as they will find themselves having to attempt to defend themselves rather than the content of the posts that they make. |
your concern we must take as a fact - but the reason for your wealth of posting seems to be based on a hunch - a hunch which challenges other peoples real experiences. Try a few less words Clark and let the real FT's talk - or maybe you want to tell us about your experiences |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Try a few less words Clark and let the real FT's talk - or maybe you want to tell us about your experiences |
...(***)....!!!......???
Mr Vikdk,
are you oxymoronically saying Clark is NOT an FT???? |
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