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Kindergarten EFL classes - Legal?

 
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Miyazaki



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject: Kindergarten EFL classes - Legal? Reply with quote

If Hess, as mentioned on a previous post, offers EFL classes in kindergartens, is this legal?

I've heard that teaching English in kindergartens in illegal.

Not clear on this - can anyone offer an explanation?

Thanks.
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Ki



Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kindergarten positions, though ILLEGAL, are common. Just be prepared for the occasional quick exit when the police come to collect their bribes.
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SanChong



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a complicated issue. It's one that I think everyone has to make a personal decision on. Generally, teaching in kindergartens will not cause a problem for you. However, it is possible. It really depends on the school and the individual situation. That's a really hard decision for a newbie to make when they don't know much about Taiwan to begin with.

One thing is VERY clear. Definitely do NOT work at any school that can't provide you with an ARC (working permit). That would be a mistake. However, many schools also have a buxiban in the same building as the kindergarten. This would allow you to legally be in the building and GREATLY minimizes any risk.

Many foreigners go through their entire year in TW working in Kindergartens without even knowing it is technically illegal. It's tough to know when you see it advertised on billboards and buses everywhere. Politicians, policeman and everyone send their kids to Kindergartens. It can also be VERY rewarding and fun to teach kindergarten (I've done it for awhile). Anyway, I think if you asked the vast majority of Kindy teachers, they would say they feel totally fine teaching kindy. Some wouldn't though. It really depends on the individual school situation.
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Miyazaki



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Are they legal or not?

If they aren't - how do all the high profile companies (HESS, Kid's Castle, etc.) get away with doing it?

Appears to be convoluted.
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clark.w.griswald



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a western perspective it does certainly seem somewhat unusual but when considered from an Asian or perhaps more correctly a Taiwan perspective it is not so unusual.

From a strictly legal sense foreigners cannot obtain work permits to teach in kindergartens and kindergartens cannot run English immersion programs for kindergarten aged students. These laws however are not widely followed as they are considered by the majority of authorities as being somewhat nonsical. In the west we would no doubt lobby for the laws to be changed but here the practice seems to be that everyone knows that it is ridiculous and therefore it becomes perfectly acceptable. This does not however make it legal and therefore any teacher who chooses to work in a kindergarten does so in the knowledge that it is illegal.

Schools will obtain your paperwork through the legal cram school section of their company.

How do companies get away with it even though they are so blatant? I think the answer lies in the attitude mentioned above and the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is that the very legislators and police officials in charge of enforcing the law also enroll their own children in such programs as they see them as beneficial and not something to be closed down.
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SanChong



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Clark just gave an excellent summary of the kindergarten "legality" situation.

To a certain degree, we need to put aside our Western definition of the word "legal". The word many times has a different meaning here. When I ask my Taiwanese friends why the goverment doesn't just make kindergartens legal in Taiwan, they say the following: "What's the difference what is written on paper? What matters is what happens in practice. What is legal isn't decided by what is written in a law book, its decided by what is enforced. So, what's the difference what we call it... everyone is doing it, so who cares what we call it?"

That is a VERY Asian attitude. I have to admit... they definitely have a point.

Anyway, my opinion on the kindy situation is that it can be a very good experience if the school gets you a work permit to work at the location and is careful. The risk is small. That being said, everyone needs to make their own personal decision.
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Taylor



Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Readers,

I would like to make a few more points on this issue. First of all, it is certainly 'easier to get forgiveness than permission' in Taiwan. Moreover, as Clark wrote,
Quote:
In the west we would no doubt lobby for the laws to be changed but here the practice seems to be that everyone knows that it is ridiculous and therefore it becomes perfectly acceptable.


China's history is based on 5,000 years of bureaucracy, so don't expect some public outcry on behalf of young English teachers who want to teach pre-school kids! Smile

Also, we've all heard about 'silly laws' in America, too. You know, the ones like: It's illegal to hitch a donkey to a fire hydrant in Arizona.

Best wishes,

Taylor
Kaoshiung
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GavinInTaiwan



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Taiwan, to work in kindergarten is illegal for foreigners.
Why are the authorities so inflexible or old-fashioned?
There are lots of reasons and debates between authorities and education experts:

1.Most foreign teachers are not all real teachers, but in most immersion schools, these foreign teachers are the main teachers. They may not be able to tell the meaning and difference of, for example, crying between 3 and 5 year-old kids.

2.There are other equally important things need to be considered, such as behavior, respect, trust, culture awareness and self-confidence. They all take skills to be observed and built. Teachers with history, computer science or even English literature degree are unlikely to analyze or understand unless they want to learn. However, these abilities are essential especially at this age.

3.Culture difference: Even adults have culture shock, but older kids can adjust themselves. The foreign teacher quality in Taiwan is mixed. Kids at kindergarten require longer time to get used to their teachers. At this age, they�re just starting to figure out how to manage their mood and emotion.

There are lots of more��


Why can you get work permit from kindergarten?

Only cram schools can offer you work permit. So if you have the permit, it must be provided by the cram schools in the same building or area. These schools are good, at least they obey the rules and give you work permit.

Some legislators are now trying to make new laws to ban teaching English under age 3. Besides the above reasons, it also has to thank some teachers' bad reputation.


Last edited by GavinInTaiwan on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:00 am; edited 3 times in total
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clark.w.griswald



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not illegal for kindergarten kids to learn English nor is it illegal for schools to teach English to kindergarten aged students.

It is illegal for schools to run English immersion programs that teach all subject matter in English. English can only be taught as a single subject, not as the medium for all subjects. The concern is that doing so may damage the childrens abilities with their mother tongue and to protect them at such a young, influential age the government has set limits on the number of hours a pre-school aged student can be offered English classes.

In the early 80's just about every preschool in Taiwan was completely Chinese with a few offering English classes. Then some English immersion programs came in and were a hit. The numbers and sizes of these grew and they became big business. Traditional Chinese schools that didn't offer immersion programs were often shunned by parents and as business for these schools decreased, so to their rage for the immersion programs increased. Unfortunately for immersion school owners one of the most famous traditional school owner investors was a legislator who drummed up enough support to ban English immersion programs on the basis of the damage they might do to little minds. She got the support of an academic who had placed her child in an immersion program only to be diappointed by the results. This legislator was the woman that you would see on the nightly news back in the early '90's as schools were raided at her request. She went after the big chains mainly. The lobbying of these two individuals has basically seen the situation that we have today. Everyone in the know is aware of this and I suspect that this is the reason that the regulations in this regard are not taken seriously as the authorities know that the current practices are a result of bitter rivalry and not concern for the students who study within the programs.

As far as foreign teachers go it is not possible for us to work legally in kindergartens as we cannot get work permits to teach in kindergartens.
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Fortigurn



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Taiwanese friend runs a kindergarten with about 30 children, with 6 hours of English instruction a week (2 hours a day over three days, and no I am not the teacher, I don't work there).

Each student receives the equivalent of about an hour and a half of English teaching a week. I have wondered how she can register her school as an English preschool, and advertise it as having a foreign English teacher, when she is literally 5 minutes walk down the road from the local police station.

But she says that in the counties (where she is), the laws aren't applied very strictly.
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Serious_Fun



Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1171
Location: terra incognita

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GavinInTaiwan wrote:
[snip]
1.Most foreign teachers are not all real teachers, but in most immersion schools, these foreign teachers are the main teachers. They may not be able to tell the meaning and difference of, for example, crying between 3 and 5 year-old kids.

2.There are other equally important things need to be considered, such as behavior, respect, trust, culture awareness and self-confidence. They all take skills to be observed and built. Teachers with history, computer science or even English literature degree are unlikely to analyze or understand unless they want to learn. However, these abilities are essential especially at this age.

3.Culture difference: Even adults have culture shock, but older kids can adjust themselves. The foreign teacher quality in Taiwan is mixed. Kids at kindergarten require longer time to get used to their teachers. At this age, they�re just starting to figure out how to manage their mood and emotion.

There are lots of more��


Thank you for mentioning some of the developmental considerations involved with teaching young learners! Smile
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SanChong



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that was really helpful information. It's difficult to teach Kindergarten aged children. It takes longer to establish rules, make mental connections with them, etc. It can also be the most rewarding!

A lot of kindy teachers can get frustrated in the beginning. Good advice is to: keep working hard and preparing good and fun lesson plans and establish fair and consistent rules.
Many times, after a month of two, thinks just click and the class can become great!

I've had a few experiences where I was extremely frustrated in teaching kindy. After bearing through the first month, they would become my favorites classes... the kids are really young and small, so they are simply following their nature by acting restless and such!
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