Job Discussion Forums

[kimo]

The following has been hashed out on Dave's before and is just my opinion. It's true that some schools will hire just about anybody who can scribble the a,b,c's, but not all are so desperate. Lately I have seen a lot of resumes and cover letters from job seekers. Some are quite good and some do not inspire.

Of course, every job has its own specific requirements, but common errors or reasons to not consider a job seeker are:

- obvious spelling and punctuation mistakes
- excessively long cover letters and resumes with irrelevant details
- cover letters that do not succintly relate how the job seeker is fit for the advertised position
- cover letters written in an 18th century style
- no cover letter at all, some just telling the receiver to look at an attachment which may or not be able to be opened
- mass mailings listing the names of every other school to which the applicant sent his/her material
- not following directions of the advertisement about what materials to send (there are exceptions to this, especially for transcripts)
- applicants wanting to delay the starting date by a month or two
- applicants giving the impression that all they have to do is just show up and the employer should be grateful for their presence
- job seekers demanding excessive salaries

The proof is in the pudding. What the teacher does in the classroom is what really counts, but employers need some way to make initial decisions about who to consider.

Flame away!

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[Cobra]

Teanage pregnancies - children having children.

China ESL teachers - children teaching children?

[Minhang Oz]

So, if I can spell "succinctly", does that mean I get the job?
I don't recommend to my boss CVs from:
* applicants who tell their life stories.
* people who plead poverty in order to argue for a higher salary. Westerners saying they're poor [eg, student loan payments or airfare needed upfront to get there]aren't believed by Chinese.
* applications not tailored to the position and which stress totally unrelated skills/experiences.
* those who employ obsequious phrases such as "I am honored" to apply to "your great school"....assuming they are writing to a Qing Emperor, or a village idiot, rather than a hard headed number cruncher.
* frustrated thespians and missionaries, or those whose cover letter asks about curfews, how far to downtown, or how many girls are on campus.

Which actually doesn't leave many resumes at all!

[Ferne]

I don't apply to job ads which include unacceptable spelling mistakes either...especially when they call themselves a foreign-investment outfit. I also don't apply to job ads telling stories, or show up with unrelated information (e.g. "there will definitely be no mice in your bedroom"). I don't accept mass mailings and emails from a bit too loyal supposed current teachers and facts such as, we will go over it when you are here or answers that are either responded too quickly or not quick enough, that don't say much or are stretched .

What goes for the applicant, goes for the potential employer as well!

And as Minhang closed: Which actually doesn't leave many resumes at all!

[MartinK]

...

[MyTurnNow]

Lots of excellent rejection reasons here. I'll add...

...people who don't have anything close to the qualifications I specify. In my last ads I asked for native-quality speakers already in China with degrees from Western countries and classroom teaching experience. I got (and still get, months later) replies from people in Cameroon bearing degrees from Thailand and who have never taught a day in their lives, and whose letters and resumes are one solid bad-English nightmare.

...people who want to use the school as a springboard for their own businesses- movie nights, juggling acts, their own homegrown "I-Can-Teach-You-Perfect-English-In-15-Days!" schemes, Amway (God help us), and so on.

...people whose cover letters alone reveal deep and serious psychlogical problems. Oy. Don't even get me started.

MT

[MartinK]

...

[Cobra]

MT I am with MK! Please start a new thread on this because some of us can add from our own experiences. Those Cameroon folks are very interesting.

Dear Sir: It is with the greatest respect and admiration for your most excellent and internationally famouse University ... (written to a 3rd tier aggie college in China's backwater or was that swamp/sump? )

[Minhang Oz]

Oh yeah, another one is those resumes that use huge fonts so the thing looks like a seventh grader's geography project. We've usually drummed [beaten?] that out of kids back home by age 15, but it seems to persist in China job applications.
And let's not be too critical of the good Cameroonians: they at least may know that "in case" is two words, as are "a lot" and "in fact". The graduates of many expensive first world education systems haven't picked up on this yet.

[Klamm]

Ok Kimo. How long have you been in China? Because if people are really going to go to the lengths that you put up to get a job in China they better be getting some very nice conditions and salary. Why? Two reasons: 1) You can get a nice job in China without any of that hassle. 2) Going through all of that hassle and selling yourself as such gives the employer more power to give you *beep*. If you're giving your employer that yardstick to measure you by, hers or his conditions should be higher than those jobs and conditions we all know you can just walk into. And you can walk into some very nice jobs and conditions! Everywhere. Loads of jobs. Constantly. Universities, language centers - you name it.

I'm suspicious Kimo...you mention all of these things to impress employers and convince them you are that great teacher in a country where that is not necessary and will often prove very disadvantegous to you later on...and you mention not asking for excessive salary.

You must be an employer! Ha! An employee in the know responds. Readers in China looking for a job, there she blows! Careful, or she may cripple ye in your negotiation.

I'm not taking the totally cynical approach. Just be aware of the power relationship in any job. Don't oversell yourself if you don't have to. You sell as hard as the conditions, salary, and competitiveness warrant. Do more and you might regret it later. Sell your employer what they're getting. You can always do and believe more in your teaching even if your job is utterly non-competitive like many jobs in China. It's no reason not to be a good and conscientious teacher. But, for example, you might get a slightly competitive job -which any job in China could be and unnecessarily inflate expectations (good for boss, bad for you).

Example: "Hey, I've got fifty applicants from indigenous tribes in Mozambique! They're ready to roll, you better get going on polishing that there resume and cover letter!" They just won't name the potential applicant pool as such... So then your boss gets you to work to punch up your value and her line to snap you on when you get the job becomes shorter...you see how this can work. Xiao xin.

I should also add that it seems Minhang Oz, Cobra, and perhaps Roger hire teachers. Not flaming, but I think people should know where some of the frequent posters on this board are coming from and what slants may be there. I could be wrong, I could be right.

K.

[Minhang Oz]

As Klamm's interested in "where I am coming from":
I'm a teacher, pure and simple. In my home country I was also a department head, with quite a big say in hiring and firing. My bullshit detector seems much more finely tuned than that of my Chinese employers, so they ask me to sort through applications, and give them recommendations. It is VERY hard to find suitable candidates in China. I've been reading some this morning. One begins "Dear Sir or Madame", then continues "How about the salary?".....despite this being in the ad. The ad. specifies degreed, native speakers, so guess what else I'm reading?
The previous postings from Kimo and My Turn say it all.

I don't think a degreed native speaker, maybe with a little bit of experience, who can put together a reasonable resume is too much to ask for.

[Klamm]

So what's your response Kimo? I'm challenging you. Come on. You've lived and worked in China. How many half-serious job applicants do you get with a BA and some experience in China? Lay the cards on the table right. How competitive is China? You're trying to get all these ultra-newbies leashed to their under paying and benefit giving bosses.

Yes you are...

[kimo]

"Hey, China, here I am. I speak English." The bar is slowly being raised, lads.

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This is not an attack, klamm, but aren't you the guy who in the "Push the Salaries" thread was talking like someone who has much experience teaching in China and telling people what to do? Then we find later you are just working a summer job or something. I think you are just doing your homework and trying to get the best deal possible. Or perhaps, you are just an incarnation of that nice guy with the prodigious fingers, the guru. Who knows?

Anyway, as Oz has said, if someone cannot put together a coherent introduction of him or herself when answering an ad, he/she diminishes the chances of receiving a positive response. That, I believe, is a given for any job seeker in any field.

*****klamm, you ask, "How many half-serious job applicants do you get with a BA and some experience in China? Lay the cards on the table right. How competitive is China?" *******

Don't know where I said anything about "some experience in China", but if the ad asks for it, then so be it. Not all schools are begging here. Not all schools have only Chinese staff reviewing resumes and cover letters. As has been mentioned, a lot of b.s. is received that Chinese staff miss. Some jobs and locations are well-sought after. It takes a little effort and maybe a bit of luck to get some jobs. From my experience job hunting, sometimes that luck is just being here. You know, "the right place at the right time."

You just about guessed it, klamm. I am helping someone who is recruiting oral English teachers for her private k-12 school. I've also done this for a university. I get no pay or anything other than to spend a lot of my time telling her why I think someone is good or not. Believe it not, I have recommended a few candidates who do not have degrees. Why? Because they have taken the time to think through their responses to her ads and express why they are suited for the positions they seek. In telephone interviews they have done the same thing. Rarely, though, would I recommend a non-degreed individual for a university level job. I tell my friend to not expect perfection in anyone though. Just look for clues that tell you the person has what it takes to perform the duties she wants and will at least try to do a good job. - Does my friend always listen to me? No! That's her perrogative.

As for the salary issue, I do not have any determination. A school makes its budget I guess and they try to stick to it. But in one of your other threads, I believe I said that everyone has the right to try and get as much much as they believe they are worth. That's called negotiation. You might win or you might lose. How risk averse are you? Demand too much and you will lose!

I will tell you right now that as we speak (write) I am looking for extra work. Yes, I have to do everything right because I won't accept lower level jobs any more. I have paid my dues in China and other places. I know I can perform in the classroom. I miss many more jobs than I get.

It can be competitive here - sometimes for all the right or wrong reasons. That's another thread for which I don't have time to get into now.

klamm, now give us your story on job hunting here and how your negotiation is going.

If everyone did as you, klamm, all salaries might go up, but would it be too much for good employers to expect to receive something in return for money? Good luck to you.

[Cobra]

klamm why bring me into your petty little discussion? I am a teacher. I am not an employer. You are wrong.
Hey klamm I just got it. That is funny. If anyone posts anything remotely intelligent they must be an employer because a mere teacher could never post anything intelligent. Are you Bertrand by another name?

[Klamm]

A response of sorts. Cobra: Why did i suspect you may be an employer? Check your reply where you quoted a poorly written introduction letter. Look, I'm not the China internet Gestapo, but I was right about some of the people. If I was wrong about you, sorry. Don't take it personally. And no, I don't think employers are more intelligent than employees. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but intelligence does not an employer make. It takes some, yes, but its a lot of other skills along with intelligence -or common sense- that make an employer.

Kimo: I'll be honest, negotiating isn't going so well for me. I'm prepared to leave China to greener pastures if they're not interested in me enough to negotiate. Especially in China now, employers are trying to keep salaries down and sell the China experience thing. Just walk. If they, out of their Chinese pride are so stuck up and vain that they won't deal a bit,walk. There are any number of places in China where you can get a job. And yes, I'm doing a summer gig and looking for work in the school year. Money is not so so important to me, but 3,500 for 16-18 hours a week is just a shaft. Please. The school here is trying to recruit fresh grads because they just want the face, naiveness, and foreign presence. So be it. They also come off arrogant and full of themselves. But...they might have troubles. Last year they hired some stragglers for six month contracts in the middle of the year. Hm. Who set them on their high horse??? Unfortunately, Chinese political history certainly shows that they'll make decisions for pride before common sense.

So flame for speaking out, but I'm just doing my thing and trying to say to everybody...it's time China wakes a little bit -in the foreigner sense. These degrees took a lot of time and money. Schools other than Uni's aside for a moment: you need to respect it, that and a year or two previous experience at a Uni. Get off your horse. And no, as Minhang Oz wrote, there just aren't hordes of job seekers with those quals looking for work in China. Let the great teachers, degree or no, make the huge salaries. I don't want to jump around like a monkey for any salary. But offer a half-way decent salary for those of us who do what a Uni is about: Study and teach. It's a way of life. If I wanted to jump around like a monkey, I'd just go to South Korea (which I might do for a year if things don't work out here).

Good luck to you Kimo and anybody else. Anybody know anything of Uni work that's fairly laid back, honest employers etc... 4,000 + Rmb a month (with all other usual benefits), PM me. Hours 12 - 16. I like to study a lot...lots of literature and Chinese characters. A whole suitcase of books have I!

K.