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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:46 am Post subject: |
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For a different viewpoint have a look at the thread over on UAE "UAE Info".
An insight into just how blinkered some people can be ! |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| I can't quite quantify how blinkered. What system of measurement is the level of blinkeredness in? Please don't tell me in stones or Latin because I'm not that global minded yet. |
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nighthawk
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 60
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:13 am Post subject: To Roger |
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Roger, you sound like the sort of guy I�d like to have coffee with and talk about literature and the like. It�s nice to know there are still people who value imagination and ideals. I still don�t totally understand what you�re getting at though.
Roger said:
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| Talking about "culture' is so fashionable, but "culture" is everything human-made, including intellectual and spiritual values. |
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| To me, and to most of my fellow students at university 'culture' also meant the intellectual exploration of a world not yet invented, not yet made available, the exploring of the realm of the possible and the imaginary, the moral and the legitimate. |
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| I don't see much of such spiritual culture in CHina although I do agree it does exist in some Asian countries that I visited, for example in India, Pakistan, the Philippines. Those countries rquire you to be deferential in a different way. |
I hope you don't mind elaborating on these statements. I�m not criticizing. I�m just trying to follow your train of thought. What do you mean by �culture�, and what is it exactly that you prefer about India, Pakistan, and the Philippines? I don�t know what you mean by �spiritual culture�? Is this a coinage from that Henry Weaver book you mentioned? Are you referring to religion? What do you mean �Those countries require you to be deferential in a different way� as opposed to the chauvinism in China, Korea, and Japan? Are you saying India, Pakistan, and the Philippines require or expect you to respect their religious traditions more than their national pride? Please elaborate. By the way, don�t mind me if you don�t want to answer all these questions. I�m just a curious sort of night bird.  |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Blinkered ? Measurement thereof ?
Sometimes I think we get the guys in EFL who wanted to join the Marines but failed the intelligence test. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Nighthawk,
shouldn't you have asked Capergirl what she meant by "Westerners" and "through Western eyes"? Do you agree that by her extgrapolation from a discussion on a Canadian website she is entitled to lump all Westerners together and claim they are ignorant and biased against non-Westerners? I think her sin was to oversimplify and overgeneralise. This discussion proves this as so many rally around her in condemning a perceived Western superiority attitude.
But as some of us have tried to put across, this is not a Western-only problem. It is the problem of undereducated people the world over. And, knowing the educational deficiencies of some developing nations, I dare say this is a greater problem in Asia and Ibero-Americathan it is in the West. This is at least evident to many of us who live in China, where students have a strong tendency to "know the West" through their biased national textbooks. For example, any Chinese will tell you how "dangerous" it is to live in the USA, attributing this insecurity to "Western individualism". So, what justifies this Chinese overgeneralisation of an American phenomenon to claim it is a "Western" disease?
I do not know why you assume that 'spiritual' culture refers to religion only. To many, it does, but to me, it does not stop there. Anyway, it is a higher level of culture to which a minority has access, usually those who have enough time to spend speculating and thinking about things that do not obey the laws of physics. In nominally-atheist China, the central government has for the past ten years been trying to instill in people values of "spiritual civilisation". The communists, after decades of ruthless campaigning against 'superstitions" have come to realise that the Chinese masses are hungering for something more lofty, less tangible than material worship, yet they are terribly afraid their flock might go astray again by following cults and 'foreign' religions. It is not priestmen, pastors and preachers that guide the nation, but the political leaders and Party apparatchiks.
Now contrast this with the religious zealots in Pakistan, the deep-rooted Catholicism in the Philippines (and Islam) or the many local creeds in India, and I am sure you understand what I meant.
In China, it is the national leadership that has supreme control over people's minds. In the Philippines, it is bishops and cardinals and imams that share power with the political elite. DItto for India and Pakistan.
I do not know how Indians or Pakistanis view themselves, but of Chinese it is well-known that they emigrate to countries whose natives they go on considering "aliens". Chinese never are "foreigners" no matter where in the world they are - it is always the others that are foreigners.
Personally, I think my presence here is a statement of my choice of China as a viable habitat; my Chinese opposite numbers often misunderstand my motives, some saying they would rather stay in the country where I come from (because it is perceived to be a safe and wealthy haven). Isn't that proof that their imagination is somewhat stunted? I am here because I enjoy the thrill and the action here, but I do not mean to say that I love everything Chinese.
For instance, I no longer fancy Chinese food because I had to eat too much of it. Too many canteens with their unimaginative and repetitive menus. What's wrong if I spend extra money to buy imported foodstuffs of my choice that the Chinese do not appreciate just yet? Oh, who says they are never going to eat cheese? I vividly remember the insultingly drawn faces of three of my closest Chinese friends many years ago when I presented them with a box of Swiss chocolate. "We never eat chocolate!" I was lectured undiplomatically. This to their guest from overseas!
Well, these days you are regarded as a boor if you come without the expected box of FERRERO. Perhaps because these young and easily influencable Chinese minds need their nanny governbment to tell them what they should eat and expect in gifts from a foreigner. Easy since chocolates now are being manufactured in China for CHinese too - it may be patriotic duty to consume some! |
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NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
Where did I say that Saudis were tolerant? I don't recall that I ever wrote that.
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Well, what you did say was that many Westerners - despite priding
themselves on the supposed tolerance of the West - are in reality the
LEAST tolerant people in the world.
Westerners being the LEAST tolerant people in the world would imply
that the Saudi's were MORE tolerant, wouldn't it? Or am I missing
some subtleties?
If you are arguing that you can always find a few Nazi's or skinheads
in western countries who are less tolerant than Saudis, then I'd agree.
We probably have a few extremists, but on average westerners are
much more tolerant than Saudi's. This is reflected in our laws and
in the freedoms we allow foreigners compared to the Saudi's.
| Cleopatra wrote: |
What I wanted to say was that KSA is a fascinating example of how Westerners react when the tables are turned on them. In my experience, not very well.
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The tables are turned against westerners much more radically in
Saudi Arabia than they are against Saudi's in western countries,
or against foreigners working in most other countries.
China certainly treats foreigners much more fairly, and China is
considered by many as a somewhat "repressive" country.
If we treated Saudi's in the U.S. the way they treat U.S. workers
in Saudi, they'd howl too. The only difference is that our laws
would see to it that the Saudi's were treated as equals.
The U.S., for example, does not put any restrictions on where
Saudi nationals can live and doesn't force them to live in
compounds so they don't pollute western culture, do they?
Sure, it is a different culture, but it is definitely a less tolerant
culture than many western cultures.
| Cleopatra wrote: |
And of course the US - and any other country - would kick out or imprison those who do not abide by their laws, which is what I meant in my post, even if maybe I did not make it sufficiently clear. For example, if a Saudi resident of the US wanted to take two wives, he would not be permitted to do so, and of course should expect to ber punished if he chose to break the law. In the same way here, if a woman goes out without an abaya and headscarf, she risks arrest. I'm not saying you have to like these and other SAudi laws, but, as JohnSlat used to say - it's their ballpark and they get to make the rules.
This is something more than a few expats should bear in mind the next time they start moaning aobut not being allwed to smoke on the street during Ramadan. |
Sure, they have their laws and when you go there you abide by
them, but there is no way Saudi's are more tolerant than westerners.
The very fact that they segregate their foreign population away
from the local population in compounds proves that they are
not tolerant.
They want people with foreign ways out of their way. That is
not tolerance. When it was done in South Africa it was called
apartheid, when it was done in the Southern U.S. it was called
segregation.
But, I agree that if you go to Saudi this is what you should
expect. It is their way. I just don't think it is very tolerant.
In fact, I would consider Saudi's among the least tolerant
people; far below most westerners.
And, of course, westerners will chafe under that yoke of
living in SA, but that is why they get paid so much.
And it is exactly why I do not ever plan to work in SA.
I once considered it but when I read the contract
(particular one phrase that said I could be fired for
"insulting the dignity" of a Saudi, which could be
interpreted as just looking at one of them funny)
I decided against it.
It's no wonder the Saudi's pity the expats, they know
they're just there for the bucks. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:22 pm Post subject: Saxon Genitive |
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Well Saudis may be intolerant but at least my Saudi students know how to use the apostrophe.
Saudi's
or
Saudis ?????????????????????????? |
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