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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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 Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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I�ve been preparing Chinese students for IELTS exams for a few years in China. Till last year the examiners used a certain amount of strictness and awarded my good students with 4.5, 5.5 or 6.0 over all. However, this year I have noticed that some of my students that are not as good as the ones I�ve taught before are getting rather �HIGHER IELTS SCORES� over all and that especially in speaking exams there. One of my students has got 7 on speaking recently and I really feel that's a way over board.
Have the IELTS exams criteria eased up or not in China?
Cheers and beers
_____________________________________________________________
Happy but worried is sometimes better than happy and proud |
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profM
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 481
Location: in political exile
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: |
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I've noticed a similar upward score trend, but only after nearly a year and a half. There are many possible reasons. First, our observations are not statistically valid and it can be just the result of getting a couple of lucky examiners for some students. That is the best explanation.
Second, the IELTS system may have one or more reasons for asking their examiners to be a little more lenient in China. a) it's a big market and they are competing with other examining systems b) schools may wish to let in more Chinese students even with poorer skills because they are good at learning quickly in immersion culture, but the schools cannot accept lower scores and IELTS is accomodating.
Third, the IELTS system hasn't been in China that long and maybe the examiners are beginning to get more used to Chinese accents and style.
I think it's mostly lucky draw of a few examiners. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Dear englishgibson... |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I attribute part of tjhis phenomenon to the venal interest of European, in particular British, tertiary institutions in Chinese fee-paying students...
Recently, the mayor of London was on a visit to China, and before his departure from London he made a point about wooing more Chinese students to come to Britian for study... |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
I attribute part of tjhis phenomenon to the venal interest of European, in particular British, tertiary institutions in Chinese fee-paying students...
Recently, the mayor of London was on a visit to China, and before his departure from London he made a point about wooing more Chinese students to come to Britian for study... |
Sure, overseas students are the UK educational system's cash cow. Ever wonder why the British Council so heavily promotes studying in the UK? |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: |
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I have to agree somewhat with William that with the number of examiners on hand, the rather high turnover and the dubious training offered by the BC, quality assurance can be an issue. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when the BC Beijing would have to use unqualified examiners during the peak season just to keep from canceling examination dates.
Then there is the human error factor. In any given job, there are those who do a better � in this case a more accurate � job than others. Still, the BC has a system in place that is used to eventually weed out the underachieving examiners. There is also the criteria (Band Descriptors) used by examiners to determine which score to assign to an examinee. The tendency has been to make them more idiot-proof, but still it is sometimes not entirely clear. Generally speaking, though, if the examiner is attentive and applies the descriptors correctly, the level of difficulty in achieving any one score has not decreased. I mean, although the descriptors have been modified, it has been only to make them easier to implement. A �6�, for example, in 1999 is still a �6� today.
So, when you say �One of my students has got 7 on speaking recently and I really feel that's a way over board�, I think the issue isn�t the IELTS exam itself, but, likely, that you can�t interpret the student�s true ability in the same fashion as the IELTS band descriptors. |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: |
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The general degradation of moral values and ethics in Western countries makes this an ideal time for a "big money" outfit like China to drag whatever principles Western educators might have further into the dust.
Considering the utter corruption of Chinese education, is it any surprise that the Chinese, interested in having their way, would impose a lack of standards on other countries interested in their RMB?
I have seen FTs here climb into bed with FAOs under the most despicable circumstances, betray their Western colleagues, and then be turned out like the trick of a 2 dolla hoe. If it happens on an individual basis, it could certainly happen on a corporate or national basis. A society is simply a collection of individuals who lack standards. |
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mondrian
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 658
Location: "was that beautiful coastal city in the NE of China"
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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The examiners are examined!
The examiners examiners are examined
The examiners examiners examiners are examined
At least once every six months, and in some countries more often than that.
Every 2 years every examiner etc. has to be recertified.
Recertification means being given a certain number of interviews (in the speaking test) or scripts (in the case of the writing test) and having to grade them. These grades have to be 100% accurate according to standards set by IDP Australia or the British Council in London. NO exceptions.
The system is thus a fair one and an unchanging one as regards standards.
It is, however, a test and is not a true reflection of a person's communicative ability. You can only judge and compare that within the parameters of the test |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mondrian wrote: |
The examiners are examined!
The examiners examiners are examined
The examiners examiners examiners are examined
At least once every six months, and in some countries more often than that.
Every 2 years every examiner etc. has to be recertified.
Recertification means being given a certain number of interviews (in the speaking test) or scripts (in the case of the writing test) and having to grade them. These grades have to be 100% accurate according to standards set by IDP Australia or the British Council in London. NO exceptions. |
Examiners are re-certified every two years as you say, but it is not terribly difficult to get 100% accuracy given that recertification occurs under conditions far, far more favorable than in a real speaking test. Even UCLES recognizes this fact and, as a result, has set up a jagged profile system as an additional form of evaluating examiners.
Actually, the fact is that there are many exceptions. In Beijing, during the periods when most examiners are on vacation and the number of candidates increase, the BC uses non-certified examiners on a contingency basis. Of course, first they will fly in examiners from other regions of China, but when push comes to shove they will call up those who have attempted examiner certification, but failed to act as examiners rather than reducing the number of candidates. Were 100% of examiners duly certified by way of the standard, ideal UCLES process, UCLES would have scrapped their Exceptions Unit long ago.
Still, by and large, the BC does an above average job administering the examination and ensuring that marking is done on a basis as standard as possible. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: IELTS exams in China |
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Thanx for your replies.
Conecting to my issues with IELTS, my students� feedbacks from their IELTS exams have prompted me to post here too. Some of them have well described their exams experiences to me and examiners procedures as rather inconsistent I must say. Previously and from last year, my students got a well structured three way speaking exams with their first stage of a few brief questions, followed by second stage of a topic �presentation� where students had a moment to prepare, and then ended by follow-up questions connected with second stage topic presentation. However, this year a few have alleged that there was no topic to be presented, but a few questions or a variety of random questions to be answered on speaking.
These kinds of inconsistencies have worried me lately, and created grounds for doubts in the system there.
| Quote: |
| I've noticed a similar upward score trend, but only after nearly a year and a half. There are many possible reasons. First, our observations are not statistically valid and it can be just the result of getting a couple of lucky examiners for some students. That is the best explanation. |
I've had a few recently.
| Quote: |
the IELTS system may have one or more reasons for asking their examiners to be a little more lenient in China. a) it's a big market and they are competing with other examining systems b) schools may wish to let in more Chinese students even with poorer skills because they are good at learning quickly in immersion culture, but the schools cannot accept lower scores and IELTS is accomodating.
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IELTS sadly seems to have become a �business� that has bended over for the Chinese market as well as for schools abroad that are in a search for the much needed students. And not only that it has also again seemingly bended over for the ones that wish to immigrate since a successful IELTS exam increases their chances.
| Quote: |
| the IELTS system hasn't been in China that long and maybe the examiners are beginning to get more used to Chinese accents and style |
That might be unfortunate and quite counterproductive, since IELTS is considered for an international exam of English language proficiency and it is used around the world to determine the examinees level of English in order to allow them entry to the English speaking world.
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| a decline in Chinese taking the test, which stopped examiners doing 3 exams per month. |
| Quote: |
| Some people examining now may go a month without doing an examination. |
Well, this might explain my concern in a way.
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| Now finally the BC management has hit home their initial goal, but I suspect the quality is now suspect.We're talking about a "charity"... |
I have had those kinds of suspisions as well.
There are a few other foreign businesses in China that have gone the same way.
Would there be a "competition" in between IELTS and TOEFL involved since both have got their "fingers" in the same pie?
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I attribute part of tjhis phenomenon to the venal interest of European, in particular British, tertiary institutions in Chinese fee-paying students...
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Western schools are "hungry" for tuition fees, aren't they? The market there is quite higher then the demand and fees are "as competetive" or as low/high as they can be. In US or Canada (recently), you see so many foreign students at Universities and those often drive the tuition fees up. I bet British aren't different with their tuition fees influenced by foreign students too.
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| Ever wonder why the British Council so heavily promotes studying in the UK? |
Hmmm....
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| I have to agree somewhat with William that with the number of examiners on hand, the rather high turnover and the dubious training offered by the BC, quality assurance can be an issue. |
That brings me to my students telling me that the examiner did not even want to shake their hand.
Well, being polite and forthcoming is a part of my teaching plan, and I tell my students (as the books do too) to politely ask for examiner�s questions repetition in the event of not understanding, however some examiners apparently refuse to repeat or explain further if asked question for example; "Can you repeat that, please" "What does the word environment mean". Isn't it disappointing when the examiner has no interest in "socially" administering his/her IELTS speaking exam?
| Quote: |
| The general degradation of moral values and ethics in Western countries makes this an ideal time for a "big money" outfit like China to drag whatever principles Western educators might have further into the dust. |
Moral values and ethics that are percepted differently in China. Big money are to be made in IELTS business in China and that's what I believe.
"You can easily buy any kind of drivers licence in China"
I am so puzzled by the approach to IELTS and to the preparation of students of IELTS in China. I understand that the grading might not be as easy, employing examiners troublesome, although I do question the apparently "new approach" in China.
Cheers and beers |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| Conecting to my issues with IELTS, my students� feedbacks from their IELTS exams have prompted me to post here too. Some of them have well described their exams experiences to me and examiners procedures as rather inconsistent I must say. Previously and from last year, my students got a well structured three way speaking exams with their first stage of a few brief questions, followed by second stage of a topic �presentation� where students had a moment to prepare, and then ended by follow-up questions connected with second stage topic presentation. However, this year a few have alleged that there was no topic to be presented, but a few questions or a variety of random questions to be answered on speaking. |
It�s obvious that neither you nor your students understand the IELTS other than by some old wives tales you read on some of the local BBS� or by dubious feedback from those who have sat the exam.
While it is true that over four years ago the IELTS exam was less structured and examiners had a lot of leeway in how they conducted the examination, such is not the case now. Examiners have little, if any, free reign on how the exam is conducted and the vast majority of the exam is highly structured and, consequently, tightly controlled and monitored. Cases of candidates skipping phase two of the interview are rare, but when the candidate presents such a weak command of the English language and an examiner�s attempt to initiate the second phase are hindered by the candidates overall poor performance, it may appear to the candidate that the second stage was eliminated or cut short. Should you honestly have students who sat the exam, achieved a score of 5 or higher and were not allowed to participate in a full and robust stage two, I would strongly encourage them to ask for an Inquiry on Results.
No, the ILETS is not accommodating and examiners are not more lenient. One of the things UCLES is most careful with is ensuring a uniform experience across borders. Statistically scores across the Mainland have not risen significantly and still lag well below those for Hong Kong and even Taiwan. I think one poster may have hot the nail on the head when mentioning that many examiners here have been in China a long time and have developed an ear for Chinglish that an examiner located in, say, Australia would not have. One extremely important factor when scoring in IELTS is not the number or category of mistakes that a candidate makes but rather whether or not the error is intrusive. Unfortunately the determination of intrusiveness cannot be scientifically defined and depends in large part on the experiences of the receptor / examiner. For example, an examiner not well versed in Chinglish might be rightly confused when trying to interpret a candidate�s pronunciation of �ulally� when I can readily identify that as meaning �usually� and, accordingly, not classify that mistake as intrusive.
If anything, universities are not clamoring for more lenient marking on IELTS but rather for more stringent marking. Not understanding the nature of the beast, people fail to realize that more stringent marking directly results for higher profit margins for U.K. universities. Also, a significant, though decreasing, percentage of candidates sitting the IELTS is taking the exam for immigration purposes. In order to retain IELTS� importance (i.e. the ability of UCLES to �sell� IELTS in the immigration process), it is in the best interests of UCLES to ensure exam scoring consistency.
Concerning competition between TOEFL and IELTS, I don�t see where there is any significant competition. Why one would imagine otherwise is beyond me and only indicates one�s lack of perception into the vast differences in the markets served by these exams.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Western schools are "hungry" for tuition fees, aren't they? The market there is quite higher then the demand and fees are "as competetive" or as low/high as they can be. In US or Canada (recently), you see so many foreign students at Universities and those often drive the tuition fees up. I bet British aren't different with their tuition fees influenced by foreign students too. |
This is absurd and anybody who has even the most minimal of real experience in the U.S. or UK education system can see it is bunk.
| englishgibson wrote: |
| That brings me to my students telling me that the examiner did not even want to shake their hand. Well, being polite and forthcoming is a part of my teaching plan, and I tell my students (as the books do too) to politely ask for examiner�s questions repetition in the event of not understanding, however some examiners apparently refuse to repeat or explain further if asked question for example; "Can you repeat that, please" "What does the word environment mean". Isn't it disappointing when the examiner has no interest in "socially" administering his/her IELTS speaking exam? |
Examiners are not babysitters. First of all, the exam is not a social encounter but more like, to be redundant, an examination. Examiners are not required to shake a candidates hand and, in fact, many examiners will not. It�s a matter of personal taste and style. I might add that most Chinese teachers of IELTS will, because they can do nothing else and to bolster their stature in the eyes of their students, give their students �valuable nuggets� of information that will supposedly unlock the secret to a higher score without focusing on what really matters � language ability. How many times have I heard candidates admit that their abnormally strong handshake is just a psychological strategy designed to influence the examiner? Many. What morons!
A perfectly normal part of any conversation between two native speakers may be taken up in repetition of utterances either not completely heard, misunderstood or that contain unknown items and this also holds true during an IELTS exam. Candidates way ask for repetition or clarification of any item and examiners will respond appropriately. However, there are strict time limitation on every segment of the examination and a candidate whose language skills are so poor that 1/3 of what the examiner says must be repeated may find himself ignored when asking the examiner to continue ad infinitum as in a) it breaks the natural flow and structure of the exam and b) the candidate�s performance is so poor that he has already irreparably dug himself into a hole with no chance of rising above, say, a 4 � at best.
Also, although a candidate may ask for explanation of any word or term that is not understood, it should be equally obvious that this is an English test and one of the categories being accessed is vocabulary. If a candidate asks me the meaning of, as a common example, �disadvantage�, I will explain it but the damage is already done in that the candidate suffers in the overall evaluation as having a poor vocabulary. In short, just because the candidate may ask for explanations in no way means that the candidate�s obvious lack of a robust vocabulary will not or should not be held against him. This concept is something the vast majority of non-native IELTS �teachers� have never learned to grasp. In any event, when a candidate asks for the definition of a word and then doesn�t understand the definition given, as is very often the case, I will not waste exam time on further clarification. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| william wallace wrote: |
| The old IELTS test was quite vulnerable to the whims of the individual Examiner. |
Exactly and this is why a, say, 7 in country A would have been a 4 in country B. Now, your "whims" might not be all that bad, but you have to admit that the "whims" of some of the cretin beside you would be, sorry to say, ghastly. In order to satisfy the real clients -- those institutions that force the demand for the IELTS -- the BC had to standardize the exam. There is also the concept of "fairness", but I dare say that played second fiddle to the $$$.
| william wallace wrote: |
| One time we had a group of 50-70 Chinese lawyers who needed a Band 7 to study in the UK, and only one candidate recieved that score.Months later the same group was back this time needing a Band 5 to study English in the UK. |
Yes, and they likely had to pay 50% more in tuition than they originally would have because they now needed a 3-month in-country intensive language course. Ahhh, the commercialism of the <insert name of any country here> educational system!
| william wallace wrote: |
| Also, to be an Examiner at one time cost no money-As it should be! Then they started charging 500RMB for the 2 day training, now I'm told it's 1000RMB, and as I had said, the pay is way down now. |
This is to pay the examiner trainer who flies in from Hong Kong. In any event, the rational behind this isn't so much the expense of the trainer, but to make sure that potential examiners who apply are "motivated" and ideologically qualified rather than some backpackers fresh in off the Silk Road. Of course, the logic behind charging is debatable. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:46 am Post subject: Dear Joe C... |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: Re: IELTS exams in China |
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Yes, William business and education don't often go together. When I was a Director of Studies at EF English First I could clearly see a conflict of interest there. EF schools owners often influenced academics at their centers and Academic Directors often had only two choices, one to go with it or two to quit.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| englishgibson wrote: |
| Conecting to my issues with IELTS, my students� feedbacks from their IELTS exams have prompted me to post here too. Some of them have well described their exams experiences to me and examiners procedures as rather inconsistent I must say. Previously and from last year, my students got a well structured three way speaking exams with their first stage of a few brief questions, followed by second stage of a topic �presentation� where students had a moment to prepare, and then ended by follow-up questions connected with second stage topic presentation. However, this year a few have alleged that there was no topic to be presented, but a few questions or a variety of random questions to be answered on speaking. |
It�s obvious that neither you nor your students understand the IELTS other than by some old wives tales you read on some of the local BBS� or by dubious feedback from those who have sat the exam... |
It�s obvious that you want to be a smart a*s here on the forum. I tried to bring up a point of inconsistencies at IELTS exams and the fact that there are questions over their standardization carried out by IELTS examiners. Everyone has his/her expectations. With regards to IELTS, we shall provide some kind of expectations for the students, shan�t we? No offence mate, but I wish you stopped shaking your �tale� here.
I am not an IELTS examiner and I have to go with what I gather from sites, teachers, books or students that have done one or two exams already. The more informed I am and the more standardized the IELTS are, the better I can prepare my students. Having said that, I don�t teach them how to recite phrases or any given questions, so don�t get any ideas there to shake your "tale" either.
| Quote: |
| If anything, universities are not clamoring for more lenient marking on IELTS but rather for more stringent marking. |
I'd like to believe that.
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englishgibson wrote:
Western schools are "hungry" for tuition fees, aren't they? The market there is quite higher then the demand and fees are "as competetive" or as low/high as they can be. In US or Canada (recently), you see so many foreign students at Universities and those often drive the tuition fees up. I bet British aren't different with their tuition fees influenced by foreign students too.
Joe C replied:
This is absurd and anybody who has even the most minimal of real experience in the U.S. or UK education system can see it is bunk.
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Who are you kidding? The more students that apply the higher the tuition fees can go. Education's becoming business everywhere, especially in those not so well known Universities.
Then, it is quite well known that some Chinese families are rich, and some quite desperate to get their kids a fine education. It is also quite known that Chinese Universities are not only becoming quite expensive themselves, but also are quite tough to get in.
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englishgibson wrote:
That brings me to my students telling me that the examiner did not even want to shake their hand. Well, being polite and forthcoming is a part of my teaching plan, and I tell my students (as the books do too) to politely ask for examiner�s questions repetition in the event of not understanding, however some examiners apparently refuse to repeat or explain further if asked question for example; "Can you repeat that, please" "What does the word environment mean". Isn't it disappointing when the examiner has no interest in "socially" administering his/her IELTS speaking exam?
Joe C replied:
Examiners are not babysitters. First of all, the exam is not a social encounter ...................................................................... |
Yeah right! First of all, ..................... being ridged or unfriendly isn�t a part of their/your job, is it? How can you find out about one�s true knowledge of the language, if you and your communication goes totally �unsocial�? From the way you are replying to my posts, it looks like you are low in that department, mate. Respectfully, you are a hostile kinda fellow. Maybe they should build a bulletproof window in between you and your student at the IELTS exam.
| Quote: |
| How many times have I heard candidates admit that their abnormally strong handshake is just a psychological strategy designed to influence the examiner? Many. What morons! |
If you get influenced by a polite and friendly student, you are a moron as an examiner.
| Quote: |
| Candidates way ask for repetition or clarification of any item and examiners will respond appropriately. However, there are strict time limitation on every segment of the examination and a candidate whose language skills are so poor that 1/3 of what the examiner says must be repeated may find himself ignored when asking the examiner to continue |
Agreed, although I did not apply that students asked so often for repetitions, did I?
| Quote: |
| Also, although a candidate may ask for explanation of any word or term that is not understood, it should be equally obvious that this is an English test and one of the categories being accessed is vocabulary. If a candidate asks me the meaning of, as a common example, �disadvantage�, I will explain it but the damage is already done in that the candidate suffers in the overall evaluation as having a poor vocabulary. |
Now, that�s understood and well taken, however �a damage is already done� since your approach on here has been rather as the one of an old lonely fart, may I be forgiven.
Now, the IELTS and TOEFL might be quite head to head competitors and it seems that US Universities do take that TOEFL much more seriously. I�ve just read quite an interesting article on Chinese students preparing to study abroad and here below is the link to it
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060414/wr_nm/column_pluggedin_dc_1
I�d say that there are scores of Chinese looking for that western education and making their plans. It�s a tremendous future business for many western Universities.
Peace to us
And
Cheers and beers |
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