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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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 Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Jamchuan wrote: |
I thought there would be a big difference teaching at a university so i made the switch and found it even more frustrating. Out of 30 students, i had about 5 come to class everyday. At first I took it personally and complained to their head teacher who told me not to worry that it was 'normal' for Chinese students. At the end of the term she watched my class for an evaluation and told my boss that I was 'boring' and that is why the students did not come to class. I wanted to smack her but I had to control myself.  It was a review class for the IELTS and I was told to only teach from the book. You can never win with these teachers and students. |
I know what you must have experienced! This shows one thing: our students are not competent appraisers! We shouldn't take their input too seriously, because in a group of 4 you get at least 5 different opinions, and in 40 or 50, imagine the anarchy in their brains! Teaching is not about pleasing, it is about changing minds, adding value, uploading and drilling skills.
In our university, attendance taking is actually encouraged because there is a standing order that absences are not tolerated unless for valid reasons. And why should it be any different? They are like kids who still need being led, ordered around (it's not what I want to do but hey, it's what they are inured to). They have zero initiative and gung-ho, hence any reason they might come up with is convincing for them to not appear in class; they won't even do homework assignments, prepare for next class etc. You waste a lot of time doing in class what they could conveniently have done before it!
I was given namelists (in Chinese) for each class, numbering 50 individuals; they had to sign in roman letters to enter their names, and I make roll-calls every time. I have now up to 5 or 6 fewer per class because they missed class more than 3 times.
The excuses some offered were hilarious: "Oh, my grandmother came on a visit and I took her around the university" or "I overslept" (during an afternoon lesson!), or "I didn't know your classes had begun..." (missing the first 3 weeks...I let him attend nevertheless).
Let's be realistic: we should not have to play at being babysitters! And they should not try to impersonate babies! BUt that's what they do because they don't take subjects where the individual has certain privileges and rights (such as taking part in an active way) seriously!
Here is an idea borrowed from an economics column: the Chinese will always produce just this mediocre English so long as no one is willing to PAY THEM FOR PRODUCING GOOD ENGLISH. No matter what their job, English is only an ornamental addition to their padded CVs and to their school-leaving certs; whether they actually speak it or not doesn't make any difference to their pay.
If their income potential were to reflect their de facto skills, then learning English communications skills would come more readily to our learners.
Let's say: an English-speaking (and suitably tested and approved) hotel receptionist that makes DOUBLE the salary her non-English-speaking colleague should be PAID DOUBLE her colleague's salary. DOuble because she has twice as many practical uses for her hospitality skills.
But China's bosses (and indeed, many bosses around the world) do not honour her extra skills at all! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| We shouldn't take their input too seriously, because in a group of 4 you get at least 5 different opinions, and in 40 or 50, imagine the anarchy in their brains! Teaching is not about pleasing, it is about changing minds, adding value, uploading and drilling skills. |
deary me Roger you haven't got much respect for the individual - what sort of 5 star cordon bleu teaching qualification uploaded and drilled these kind of theories into your head 
personaly I usually would think that happy contented student stood more chance of learning something since feeling of good encourages - not only physical attendance but mental attendance. Of course teachers could always resort to that good old fashion well-worn path of bullying their students into learning - AKA uploading and drilling |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Same goes, Roger, that English-speaking Chinese teachers who can teach English (to a certain degree) as well as, say, Chinese or another subject, should be entitled to more money. It takes a certain steadfast skill to keep kids in line when teaching them "boring" ol' English. The Chinese teachers, in general, should be just as engaging and interesting in the teaching of English as the foreign teachers are expected to be. At this point, I'm talking about the Chinese-English teachers that surround me in the first grade classes.
I don't know their exact pay, but I'm sure it's a mere fraction of what I'm getting. Yes, I work hard and for the job I have I wouldn't expect any less than what I'm earning, but what's the incentive for a future teacher wanting to actually teach English as opposed to any other subject? The pay still stinks! |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: |
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The huge salary differential certainly is a big factor to think of. The question is: why do CHinese accept such working conditions?
The answer is: there is no intrinsic motivation for anyone to do anything. You are "lucky" to have a job, full stop. And you were lucky indeed in being placed in a university; you didn't have the right to choose the subject you studied. Thus, no one leaving middle school knos what they are going to major in at college or university - think about this, and how much at variance it is with western practice! I am an English teacher essentially because languages have always played a major part in my social life and they motivated me to study them even more. In China, you study jurisprudence because the faculty of law has one or two vacancies in their classroom - for students, of course. THese selfsame students might prefer to study foreign languages but end up taking English as a minor, and they will be crammed into a huge class of also-rans.
That's the problem with English teachers too: they are ENglish teachers in spite of themselves, not because they have a personal interest in the language or in the literature. The one common denominator might be they too would love to move abroad for an extended period of time.
Most normal school/college graduates accept a position as a stopgap solution; they dream of better times when they will be self-employed.
Because teachers in CHina DO NOT ENJOY social status and respect, far from it! And the community shows it clearly - with such ludicrously low salaries.
Many are also afraid of antagonising their students and the parents of their students. The demographics have changed fundamentally; nowadays a single child attracts far more attention from his family than in the old days; if he is unhappy he will articulate that in no uncertain terms: if the teacher is to blame for whatever the little prince or princess thinks he did wrong, the parents have ways and means to come down hard on the teacher. |
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mlomker
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
| hus, no one leaving middle school knos what they are going to major in at college or university - think about this, and how much at variance it is with western practice! |
Is this true? I've heard it before on this forum, but the two Chinese college students that I have chatted with told me that they chose their majors. One is at BNU and the other Wuhan University. Perhaps there is a discrepancy about what 'choice' means...perhaps they only had a couple choices...I'm not sure. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| hus, no one leaving middle school knos what they are going to major in at college or university - think about this, and how much at variance it is with western practice! |
If your score is high enough in your university exam so you can enter the uni and major of choice - but if it's not high enough then you are placed in a uni and major by the placing authorities - you can refuse this option and resit exam. But upshot of this is many don't want to sit again and take a major they never chose.
However the way Rog gave us the original info is a classic piece of disinformation - it is possible to go to that uni and major in a subject you have choosen - but you don't know what your fate is untill you get those final uni entrance exam results!!!! |
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mondrian
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 658
Location: "was that beautiful coastal city in the NE of China"
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| mlomker wrote: |
| Roger wrote: |
| hus, no one leaving middle school knos what they are going to major in at college or university - think about this, and how much at variance it is with western practice! |
Is this true? I've heard it before on this forum, but the two Chinese college students that I have chatted with told me that they chose their majors. One is at BNU and the other Wuhan University. Perhaps there is a discrepancy about what 'choice' means...perhaps they only had a couple choices...I'm not sure. |
You have some fortunate students then!
I did a written questionaire for my classes (total 750 students) last semester.
Once of the questions was: who chose your major?
20% replied that they did: 45% replied that their parents did and the rest replied either that they wanted to come to study in Dalian at whatever University they could get into or that the University told them what their major was going to be.
So I have English majors who wanted to be scientists; engineering students who wanted to study drama; and accounting students who wanted to study English (and who spent their vacations in private Beijing Intensive English classes).
As one person has said: it's a big difference from what we are used to in the West. |
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nanchang
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Happily not there anymore!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| kev7161 wrote: |
| I don't know their exact pay, but I'm sure it's a mere fraction of what I'm getting. Yes, I work hard and for the job I have I wouldn't expect any less than what I'm earning, but what's the incentive for a future teacher wanting to actually teach English as opposed to any other subject? The pay still stinks! |
At my uni they make about half what I do, close to 2,000 I was told. Plus, Chinese get bonuses twice a year and other benefits.
You are a native speaker who is living far from home, family, friends, the civilized world, etc.
Models get paid way more than I do. People who have the money for grad school get paid more. Born geniuses get paid more. Life's not fair. I'm not saying it's a good thing. But it's not fair.
Roger, students do choose their majors. I've asked them at two different unis (one level 3 uni and one level 2 uni) and 100% picked their own majors and unis. They may not be majoring in what they wanted or where they wanted because they didn't score high enough on the gaokao, but 100% of my students chose their majors and unis, within the limitations presented by their score on the gaokao.
Oh, yes, Mondrian, many 'chose' what mom and dad told them to choose, but I mean in reply to Roger's post it is not that the 'system' chooses their majors for them as some FTs claim. |
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jester
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| You are right. All my students "chose" their majors(more than 1000 students). Well, their parents did. But it was a choice. And my college is one of those where you get sent to. |
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mlomker
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mondrian wrote: |
20% replied that they did: 45% replied that their parents did
As one person has said: it's a big difference from what we are used to in the West. |
No it isn't. A lot of students in the US study what their parents wanted them to because the parents are paying the tuition. I have a number of friends studying business and law when their interests are social studies or music. Their parents considered that impractical and vetoed their choice.
By your own numbers it sounds like 65% of students were not told by the university or government what to study. I'd assume that the other 35% had lower scores on their placement tests and couldn't afford to be as choosy.
You're correct that in the US you can always find a lower quality school and study the subject that you want to--even if your first choice wouldn't let you in. The Chinese students that I've spoken to were all looking for full scholarships to the US and that was their limitation--they'd accept their second or third choices in return for not having to pay.
We all have to weigh our options in life, but these are choices and not what Roger was stating. |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| mlomker wrote: |
| mondrian wrote: |
20% replied that they did: 45% replied that their parents did
As one person has said: it's a big difference from what we are used to in the West. |
No it isn't. A lot of students in the US study what their parents wanted them to because the parents are paying the tuition. I have a number of friends studying business and law when their interests are social studies or music. Their parents considered that impractical and vetoed their choice.
By your own numbers it sounds like 65% of students were not told by the university or government what to study. I'd assume that the other 35% had lower scores on their placement tests and couldn't afford to be as choosy.
You're correct that in the US you can always find a lower quality school and study the subject that you want to--even if your first choice wouldn't let you in. The Chinese students that I've spoken to were all looking for full scholarships to the US and that was their limitation--they'd accept their second or third choices in return for not having to pay.
We all have to weigh our options in life, but these are choices and not what Roger was stating. |
most students, at least where i come from, soon realize that they can change their major anytime they want, and there's no parental permission required for that. mom and dad would never know, and i think, at least in my experience, most students have no problem convincing their parents to let them choose their major. chinese students cant or wont do this. |
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