Job Discussion Forums

[Slim Pickens]

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[laconic]

Question them. ASAP.

Hold them accountable.

You paid your money and you deserve both a fair shake and an explanation.

Put them on notice that nothing less will suffice.

[ls650]

Without having been there, I can't say whether you have a valid complaint or not. You might very well be in the process of being cheated...

... but really, it's just a CELTA. I mean, c'mon, it's a quick and dirty 4-week course. We are not talking about a post-graduate degree or diploma, just a piece of paper that some schools like to see before they hire you.

In the grand scheme of things, experience and personality will get you the good jobs, not some arbitrary mark on a piece of paper.

[Cdaniels]

I was disappointed enough to drop out helfway through and finish up taking Spanish classes instead. But...Nobody will look at your "grade." I don't know if you have a college degree and what your previous job search experience has been, but generally if you got a degree, no one will care whether you're suma *beep* laude or just barely passed. A lot more depressing after four years than just a month-long course.
I know of a really young student teacher who really was both entertaining, a hard worker, and outstanding with the beginner students. Born teacher who was recognized by CELTA people. But this person was not ready to commit for a full year, did not research the field before signing up for the CELTA, and quit the one job s/he did find soon afterwards, which was basically glorified babysitting.
I would save your energy for unfair work situations where money is involved. I assume you're not getting a discount or some sort of bribe for acing the CELTA... If you feel you've had to fight harder than others that will only bring you more satisfaction for pulling it off.
Find a list of famous people who acheived great things after failing school, that might cheer you up
Being recognized as a good teacher is the best revenge.

[Slim Pickens]

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[tedkarma]

Devil's Advocate here:

As in most of life, it might be best to look only at what you are doing - and not what others are doing.

My guess is that the school will tell you that what goes on with the other students is not your business. They might even see it as nice that they provide extra tutoring?

Do you have complaints about the training or service YOU are getting?

I see/hear what you are saying - but it is quite focused on others and what you are guessing might be their results and grades/scores for the course - which, of course, you don't really know - and can only guess at - at this point.

Don't get me wrong - I am not a CELTA fan. Just asking about the situation.

Am I reading this wrong?

[sojourner]

Slim,

Go to the Teacher Training Forum, and look up the name of Jeff Mohammad, one of the more regular posters to that Forum. He has been a CELTA trainer for a number of years. Send him a PM re your assessment queries.

Also, you mentioned that a number of job ads are now requiring candidates to have passed CELTA with a "B" grade. In which countries are those ads for ? I would imagine that, as long as you hold a degree, have had several years of teaching experience, and have successfully completed a CELTA course , it wouldn't matter what grade you r'd for the certificate. Most likely, the insistence on a "B" grade might only apply for those who don't have any teaching experience - but I could be wrong.

Peter

[Chris_Crossley]

The situation you describe, Slim, appears to be just as bad as hearing about Chinese students being groomed to pass oral English exams when they know that they have not got a ghost's chance of passing them in the first place. With three years of teaching experience in China under your belt, I dare say you know this sorry state of affairs only too well.

It's a bit like having to bite the proverbial bullet, but I would have to agree with some other fellow posters in saying that you should really concentrate on getting a really decent grade in your CELTA rather than worrying or getting really all worked up about what the tutors appear to be doing to others.

Are the other trainees you have observed so unbelievably bad at teaching other students that, with your teaching experience, you would be ready to fail them if you were their CELTA tutor? If you really, really believe that this is a case of corruption, collusion, etc, you could write an official letter of complaint to the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate, the CELTA course provider. I am sure that not all UCLES-appointed tutors are necessarily whiter than white. Tony Blair got into power in Britain back in 1997 claiming that this is how he and his party would behave - and look at what has happened: scandal after scandal after scandal. In this respect, Blair and his ilk have proven themselves no different from their predecessors in Westminster.

Officially, CELTA tutors are answerable to UCLES, but you would have to present a pretty strong case if you think that there is conniving and even palm-greasing going on. Like you, I did my own qualifying certificate (in my case, the Trinity Certificate in TESOL) on a part-time basis, so I had a period of 31 weeks from start to finish, though I did not have the added advantage of three years' teaching experience in a foreign country beforehand. With all this experience, you certainly have a right to air your views, but, as you indicated, not everybody is prepared to listen, especially those who may be acting improperly.

I guess that it must come as a shock to see this happening in your own backyard as opposed to back in China where nothing surprises you any more as regards what goes on to get students to pass when they would otherwise fail. The contagion really must be spreading all over the world now. I would not be at all surprised if this were happening back in my home country, too. That does not mean that I would not be displeased about this - but I would not be surprised, either.

Integrity is up for compromise if it suits anybody's purpose, and that seems to include homegrown tutors. When we feel that we are in no position to prove any wrong-doing amongst conniving tutors and students beyond all reasonable doubt, then we feel that qualifications, even those which are externally moderated and allegedly have a worldwide reputation for quality, simply become worthless in the long run. Don't be surprised if you read a newspaper article someday entitled something like "The CELTA scandal"!

[Slim Pickens]

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[angrysoba]

I remember on my course an independent assessor came to inspect the running of the course that I took. I assumed that this was standard practice in all CELTA courses to 'ensure' that standards are being upheld. Do you know whether an assessor will be coming to see your course too?

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[fluffyhamster]

I think you've got to ask yourself if you really want the A or B grade so badly that you're prepared to not only unquestioningly accept everything you're told, but do it to the letter too, and perhaps even kiss some serious *ss in the process. It's far better IMHO to not openly agree or disagree, praise or condemn, whatever methods or teachers you come across, but just (in Bruce Lee's words) "aborb what is useful" for yourself and "walk on". It's vitally important that teachers develop their own interests and follow their heart rather than potentially false promises of "limitless" pedagogicial power, wealth (ha ha) etc etc.

The one person I know definitely got a grade B (maybe it was even an A) on the same course that I did lost no time in setting up her own training course in which she proceeded to shamelessly flog training activities she'd only been studying the month before. R'as al Ghul was NOT impressed.

So, employers might not be that bothered by the grade, but the temptation will be there for the "above average" successful trainee to always wave their result in people's faces.

I just remembered another guy who got an A, this time through International House in London (collective gasp of admiration, along with a few dissenting snorts of possibly envious disdain). He was a smart guy and a great, caring, responsible teacher, but it kind of puts things in perspective to hear these demigods say things like 'Oh, a concept question, that's where you check understanding through asking, for example, if you put clothes in a fridge'. (I knew what a concept question was and could appreciate that he did too, in a vague way, but training is really so much handwaving if that's the best that the best trainees can come up with. I mean, what would be a REAL concept question? How would it fit into ACTUAL discourse - that is, reflect a genuine difficulty in communication, where meaning is being negotiated through choosing not just "correct" but subtly more appropriate words - as opposed to grinding through painfully obvious stuff in what is obviously yet another "time out"/waste of time/wasted opportunity in yet another classroom? Some might say that beginners would be gaining input - 'put', 'clothes', 'in', 'the' etc, as well as remembering the meaning of 'fridge', perhaps being elicited on 'wardrobe' etc, but I'd leave those furniture and appliance words to wordlists, or use them in authentic, contextualized sentences. It all ultimately smacks of flash over substance, a lack of serious thinking about what the hell we are/could/should/shouldn't be doing in classrooms that the CELTA/the CELTA level just doesn't really want to address).

Me, I spent many months before the course browsing bookstores, bought a large number of stimulating books (e.g. the first books I decided to buy were from Michael Lewis's LTP), and have been studying and thinking ever since (1996), and I'm nowhere near the point where I feel I could demand instant respect, command high private fees etc (not that I am the sort who would ever demand too much).

[Chris_Crossley]

"Concept question"?! Aaarghhh!!!! I haven't heard that phrase since I actually finished my Trinity College (London) Certificate in TESOL five years ago!

It would be easy to ask sarcastic concept questions to Chinese students, given our acquired (albeit through painful experience rather than teaching) knowledge of the Chinese education system and the concomitant spoon-feeding that accompanies it. For example, using the present participle of the verb: "Do you pass exams by *-ing?" (studying hard / loafing around / going to net bars / bribing the teacher / bribing the head of the education bureau / asking someone else to impersonate you)

It'll be a two-way education: they slot in the most appropriate option and know how to use -ing, while we learn more about their attitudes through the answers they give in such a subtle way that they won't really know why we are asking these questions!

[Slim Pickens]

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[fluffyhamster]

'Reduce TTT' is a tenet designed to stop garrulous teachers from hogging the lesson time, or newbies from talking out of their hat about stuff they don't really know (such as more complex grammar etc). When the teacher actually now knows their stuff, however, it is silly (insane, even) to suggest gagging the most fluent person in the classroom.

Of course, listening only isn't a sufficient condition in itself for fluent production, but it is a very necessary one, and considered input may sometimes also need to be considerable (quantity as well as quality) to achieve the desired outcome (=students who are familiar with most of what English (speakers) might throw at them).

Good to hear you got what you wanted, Slim.